Raw Transcript: Video AVEZBy1uAk8

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> That's wild. I went in [music] cuz I came in from I am I think I was living at the time and I went in and uh and uh I'm sitting in the waiting room and it was like on a Sunday because it was I was like I'm only in town for and Stan was like I'll come into the office. I'm like thank you so much. I had to have some a filling or whatever I [clears throat] needed. It's a kind of an emergency. So, I'm sitting in the thing and uh and I'm not getting called in, but the the the lad just No, no, there's not even a receptionist. And Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the first thing I hear is PIG [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] PIG [laughter] [ __ ] AND I'm like, what is happening in there? It's in the other room. And Stan comes in with his mask on. He goes, he goes, sorry. He goes, I'll be with you soon. He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And he goes [laughter] back and I hear listen to to Hunter Thompson swear for like 15 minutes. I'm like, "This is amazing." And then Stan goes, "Okay, come on back." And Hunter's kind of getting out and he goes, "Oh, you're sitting down with this guy. He's a [ __ ] assassin." [laughter] And then he goes and he's got this jug of clear uh of clear fluid and he's like, "You're going to need a sip of this." And I'm like, "Oh my god, this is [ __ ] Hunter S. Thompson's moonshot." [laughter] I'm like, "This is ethyl alcohol." Like this is [ __ ] amazing. I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip and like [laughter] and it was like 10:00 in the morning on a Sunday. >> Yeah. >> He was halfway through the drug [ __ ] like where was this >> in Beverly Hills? [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Brentwood. Yeah. Brentwood was stand office. Yeah. >> Oh my god. That's amazing. It was it really was amaz It was it was and I so I had probably a total of seven minutes, you know, with him and it was like I I I it could I could not have been a better seven minutes. >> That's incredible. I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there cuz I know he used to go there and like you could like feel him in the building. You know, there's all the pictures in the walls. It's cool little place. >> I mean those books [ __ ] Hell's Angels and and you know, Fear and Loathing is some of the best writing. I I just [ __ ] like he really had his own voice. Rum Diary was spectacular, you know? It was like really descriptive and punchy and [ __ ] interesting and [ __ ] up. And he also just lived that life. It was like >> Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like reading that book was like, "What the fuck?" Like, "What is this guy doing? [laughter] Grown men out there balding grown men with spectacles running around. >> I think there's lizards in the [ __ ] [laughter] lounge. Like, you guys are loosening." And he's got a day trip bag filled with acid. Like, what the [ __ ] are you doing, man? That was [snorts] and it's great [ __ ] It's like you're [ __ ] you feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know? >> Yeah. No, it's a it's it's interesting to watch the the evolution of his writing too, you know? Like I read Hell's Angels and it's like very different, you know, but it's >> and that's early when he's kind of restrained and it was quite like for that I think it was edgy sort of for the time, you know, like oh you're going to get beat and chain whipped and stomped by the angels and that was really edgy and by the time they got to what was fairly 72 or something like that, >> you know, he was just >> Yeah, he was there. He found his voice. >> He did find [laughter] he was supposed to be covering a race for like Sports Illustrated. [laughter] >> That's where Fear and Loathing came from. But I [ __ ] lost my mind. [laughter] >> Great. It's great, Hunter. >> We'll take it. >> Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I've met you before, but very nice to meet, man. Thank you very much. I love the [ __ ] movie. The rip is great. It's really good. It's so original and it's so it's so different and it's, you know, it's like I love those kind of movies, but it's not like any one that I've ever seen before. Really solid movie. >> Thanks, dude. Thank you. >> It was awesome. so [clears throat] much better than you hating it and having [laughter] the interviews where they're like, "So, I saw the movie anyway. How you guys been?" >> We've had we've had a lot of those the junk the press junkets where they come in and the first thing that you know the movie sucks if if they don't ask you anything about the movie, they come in, they go, "So, how you been?" >> You know, and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] this is going to be bad." >> Is it weird like the the transformation of the film industry seems to like a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now? >> Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because where most people have gone to watch them, right? Like, >> used to be the only place you go see movies in the 40s. Like, every American went to the movie every week basically. But it was because it was that or watch the cows walk by. You know, that was the only and then TV comes around. It's little and you see these little cals. But you know what happened was now this is why this totally changed the whole thing because you got 300 million people 330 whatever it is watching you know Netflix and it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies. There's also YouTube. There's also Tik Tok. There's also my kids like it's hard to get them excited about a movie. Yeah. That's what we had. I mean >> Yeah. That was our I mean our teen years were just every weekend we're at the movies. >> Yeah. >> Um there's just no question about it. that you were going to go and usually not get into one cuz there were too many people and then you just see what else is playing and go to that. >> Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already and then CO came around and everyone was locked down and no one was going to the movie theater and then it just set it. >> I had this like drama that was coming out like right when CO hit. I really like the movie performance movie. It's an alcoholic guy whose kid guys kid dies and becomes an alcoholic. It's dark movie but I I loved it and I could tell like we're [ __ ] No one's going to go to see the theater, see this movie. And it wasn't even that streaming streaming really blew up, you know, of course during co. So, you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming. People actually saw it. I was like, look, all things being equal, I'd like people to see it, you know, and it's not like my dad had an 11in black and white TV and that's what was TV viewing now. It's like $200, you got a [ __ ] 65 in flat screen like and good sound. So, of course, people are willing to and then streamers also started making great shows. You have adolescence. I don't know if you saw. I think that's one of the best things ever done. >> I haven't seen out of unbelievable. >> What is it? >> Oh my god. It's a It's a It's I I don't want to spoil too much of it. It's only four episodes. >> They're all one shot. >> They're all one shot. Each episode is one entire shot. >> Whoa. >> So, the cast they took, I think, I talked to the director about it. The cast took I think a week to rehearse each one and then a week to shoot it. And so, so they they do it twice a day. It's the full hour. They would choreograph the entire thing. Yeah. That's really >> And then the acting is great. >> But that's that I mean just dismiss that even you could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case. But um the performances and the writing and what it's about it's it's as good as anything you'll see. It's it's phenomenal. >> What is it on? >> Netflix. >> Netflix. Yeah. >> You know, you have like it's not this is not even an anomaly. There's Baby Rangers. There's [ __ ] Succession. There's Game of Thrones, Ozarks. You know, it's just like, okay, well, they're doing great [ __ ] out there. It's not like the sort of implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good. We're not as interesting. It's a serious >> When we started, it was a there was a different I I mean, like George Clooney, for instance, like there was a big thing, you know, he very famously, you know, became this superstar on ER. That show, 40 million people a week were watching that show. It was the biggest thing, right? Because [snorts] there were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one. and and George never renegotiated his contract. He wanted to work in movies and it was like you can't go from TV to movie. It's very hard. Very few people can do it >> and he really strategically and kind of patiently like he joked that on the last episode he was on Anthony Edwards, you know, his co-star was making a million bucks for the episode and he was making, you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal was. Like he could have renegotiated but he would have had to give more years. >> That's how bad he wanted to get off TV and do movies. That's how bad he wanted to get off of the biggest TV show in the world. Um because the there was such a big kind of level change between features and and TV. >> Well, it was a giant difference in quality. It was also this the breaking it up for commercials, right? >> It was just a different experience. >> It couldn't be, you know, there was all these rules like you can't say this, you can't do that, you can't swear of violence and n all the things people want to see in movies, you know, and then >> and also it wasn't it wasn't as interesting. And then now that's like tethered to these schedules and all this stuff or you get this [ __ ] like you don't have a schedule and and you can take a bunch of risks. So and that started happening and then it was kind of like well this all is just as good if not better than what's in the movies and >> well then movies started to move towards more IP and >> because it was hard to get people come to the movies. everyone got scared and thought, well, you have it there has to be a sequel or a superhero movie. >> And so an interesting little movie kind of in the '9s when we kind of came onto the scene, you know, there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made. There was there was, you know, it was a really great time to be making movie. People were they were making daring movies and and and then everyone just got way more conservative because it's huge. Like the business is so different theatrically and streaming because to put out a movie theatrically, you have to put so much more money behind it to publicize. Like you're trying to get everybody >> spending about what the budget was to make it to advertise it because you got 50% of the theatrical. >> Yeah. Because you split it with the the the movie house, right? The exhibit. >> So $25 million movie to break in. You got to make $100 million. And so and and you got to get everybody to not only know about the movie but to show up like that Friday night like that specific time, you know, for that specific movie. And so did and to cut through all the noise that you people are contending with. And you know, >> so it just becomes about risk and nobody wants to take the risk. So they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment. We're going to lose all our [ __ ] money. And the streamers stepped into that and like no, you know, you didn't have to necessarily have a star. You could try something more interesting or didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever it was. And also, I think it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like it's first of all, it's expensive, right? You take your whole family, it's $100. You're on a streaming service, $20 a month. You can watch all you want. So, you can't be cavalier about like you're just going to price it however the [ __ ] you want and expect everyone to like be indifferent to that. And then, you know, also, you know, the idea of like for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff I make that decision like, do I want to see the Odyssey on on a big screen? [ __ ] def. I went to a theater to just watch the trailer for that movie and you know did I at one battle after another I wanted to go see in the theater but there's movies with people that I really like and respect where yeah and I got a good system and [ __ ] but I'm like look I'll watch and I might get tired or I won't pause it and take a piss or the kids you know whatever it is >> that's conducive to my lifestyle you know and so and most I see few I think most people are yeah >> but there is the experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people see an awesome movie with a bunch of other people it's like a shared experience >> 100% I I always like way more attent like like when I went to see one battle on IMAX like you know that feeling there's nothing like that feeling I took you know two of my kids and two of my nephews and my wife and we all went and it was just it was like and you're in with you know a bunch of strangers but people in your community and you're having this experience together. I always say it's more like going to going to church like you show up at an appointed time you you know what I mean? doesn't, you know, the the experience of watching at home. I think, >> you know, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to or that you're able to give to it. And that has a big effect. And it also ends up having an effect or is starting to have an effect on how you make movies. Like for instance, Netflix um you know standard way to make an action movie that we learned was you know you usually have like three set pieces. One in the first act, one in the second, one in the third and you know you kind they kind of ramp up and the big one with all the explosions and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. Um and now they're, you know, they're like can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody, you know, we want people to stay >> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're watching. [laughter] You know what I mean? >> And so then it's going to really start to infringe on how we're telling >> but then you look at adolescence who didn't do any of that. It >> didn't do any of that [ __ ] great. You know what I mean? So I think it's and it's dark too. It's tragic and intense. this like guy who's finds out these kids accused of murder and it's like you know and and there's long shots in the back of their head. They get in the car, nobody says anything. I think there are those look the these were feels more like the exception. It's so masterfully [snorts] made that it feels a little more like the except I hope it's not. My feeling is just that it demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that [ __ ] to get people, you know what I mean? Like, >> and I think, you know, yes, you know, like, look, hey, the town had the action thing in the beginning, the first five minutes cuz, you know what I mean? Like, it's a it's a common trick that you would go like, let me grab them and get him invested in the it's like the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff and now we're going to flash back to the beginning and tell you how they got there. Um it's it you know I always feel like uh you know complaining about it makes me feel like one of these guys was like when I was a boy like you always want to freeze the culture at the time when you I don't know felt more like you know we used to have these phones the [ __ ] are all these phone and everybody's looking at their I get it yes it's true also it's like supply and demand people want to look at their phone they can look at TikTok they want you know they're going to do that I think what you can do is make [ __ ] the best you can make it really good and you know people can still go to the movies it's not I think we have this idea of that's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is going to destroy everything instead of like >> what history suggests is that there's like marginal encroachments. Things shift. Yep. As television came along, there was less theater going and that's still going to happen. And people are still going to go to the movies because of what you said. Like it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm going to go see The Odyssey. I guarantee you in a theater, you know, no matter what fewer of them, you could argue that's because I have more choice or whatever it is. It's hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick, right? If people want to watch a bunch of stuff at home because they invested in TVs and cost us money, they will. So, okay. But the upside of that is like I can try to do something hopefully that's like that actually doesn't need to, you know, have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family. That's a little more experimental or risk-taking or whatever in that way. >> Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's no way you're going to change people's viewing habits now. Yeah. I mean, what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones has got to be pretty high, which is insane. >> Yeah. >> Even watching on a laptop for me is kind of like kind of sucks. You know, >> it sucks. >> That's a joke that I [clears throat] like to make with every director I work with. Like when they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something, I go, you know, it's not going to look as good on the phone when [laughter] they just everyone gets angry. >> Takes the weight out of their [ __ ] sales, you [laughter] know? No, that's going to look great this [ __ ] bigs. But keep [ __ ] around and lighting that wall. >> It is weird though the the concern for the algorithm like making sure that people watch like look we've got data that shows within the first five minutes when this happens they tune out. So let's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe you know he's got Kill Tony and now it's on Netflix and so they're giving him notes now and they can give him like but they're not telling him what to do but they're saying like this is when people are tuning out and so let's you know just so you have that data now decide how you want to edit things. It's like, >> yeah, it is because because the >> it's like the the bar for for walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel. Right. >> Right. And often times, you know, you directors will want to make a movie that is challenging and upsetting. And I remember Terry Kenny, my my friend, great actor, and he he told me about the experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York for the first time, right, in 76 or whenever it came out. And he said, "What I remember is not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up. I got up out of my seat and I went, but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested, but I was so he was standing at the back by the door watching the movie." And he goes, "And there were two other people standing next to me who were doing the same thing >> just cuz they were disturbed >> because the movie was disturbing them so much." Wow. >> Which is not a bad thing, right? So had that been on on Netflix or Amazon, you know, if somebody say, "Oh, I'm disturbed." And they turn and they change the channel. >> Yeah. >> Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver, >> right? That's true. Like the investment of going to a place is much greater. >> Yeah. And one of the values of that is that you could you look at movies from the 70s, the first act was 25, 30 minutes, right? You know, the verdict for a great movie takes a long time to get >> the deer hunter. Yeah. I mean, that's >> and and you're right, like what you're saying, the threshold for walk out is really like any scene like, ah, I want to watch Naked Alone, like whatever, you know, you flip the [ __ ] So, you're you are battling that. And you know, >> I watched Lemon's the other night, Steve McQueen, and there's no one talks for like five minutes. There's no talking. It's just a bunch of stuff getting done, just a bunch of people doing things. And it's like, wow, you could make a diff. You could let it air out back then. Yeah. >> It was they had a different respect for what it was. Like you were telling a story and you're going to let it air out. >> Well, they also knew where their audience was. They were in a theater that they >> part of it was they wanted to come there. I mean, this great story I like is the first time they they [clears throat] debuted a movie guys with a with a projector in a room full of people. It was a it was a movie of a train pulling into the station. So they put the reel up and they did the demonstration and they showed the people and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector. They never [ __ ] [laughter] seen anything like that, you know? So it's like the techn is upstaging but like you come for an event, come for a thing, we're all going to be here. That's part of it. >> It's um I don't know. There's competing arguments. So you can think, well, what do you get to do? And some people just go ahead and [ __ ] it. Like Jim Cameron's Avatar, I'm going to make my three-hour movie and people are going to come and great. You know what I And people say, "Oh, well, you can't have a three-hour movie." And he's like, "Well, I'm Jim Cameron and I've actually got the number one and two and, you know, movies. I I think I got this." He goes ahead and does it. You know, this history is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom and we're like, "Yeah, but we're going to do something different." And it, as it turns out, >> like that's actually what people want, too, is not for you to just repeat the other [ __ ] that's been done before and that worked before. >> This episode is brought to you by Visible. Have you heard of Visible? It's the oneline wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included, all on Verizon's 5G network. It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection. Got a resolution to save? Kick 2026 off right now. For a limited time, new members can get the Visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Ring in the new year with code switch26. Share the savings with a deal that's too good to keep quiet. Switch now at vvisible.com. Terms apply. Limited time offer. Subject to change. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. One of the things I read that I thought was really [ __ ] cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses. Yeah, >> that's awesome. >> Yeah, hopefully it's successful. [laughter] >> I think you're going to get a [ __ ] house if it doesn't great movie, man. It's a fun movie, >> but it's it's it's good, but it's not like, you know, [ __ ] we're saints or philanthropists. Like, it's completely self- serving in my opinion because in order to do the job well, everybody who's working on it has to be really invested and give a [ __ ] about the result, not their paycheck only. And sometimes you worry the crew that just happen to be great anyway even though they don't really have to care about it and they do. And what we saw was like that makes your movie better. And then there's just the thing of like the business is changing. You see these strikes and work stop all these [ __ ] questions in order for this I think to to survive and to be you know a good middle class [ __ ] art artist you know artisal craftsman job. We got 1,200 people that, you know, need to have reliable jobs. And part of the negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going to get [ __ ] Like, we have no participation. Like, used to working on movies, and it happens to actors, too, where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard and we [ __ ] put in the extra effort. Somebody else walked away with all the success >> and you, you know, my theory was was with Matt was we were like, how about where let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right? this thing actually blows up and does really well, you should benefit from that. People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of of participation back and that haven't come true. This is like the crew. Everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything. This is just an exercise and actually proving that it's not [ __ ] that if there's success, you'll get some extra little success, a little extra, a little more, a little more. >> But also, like you said, because it's fair, you know, and and [clears throat] and in success, the people who made the movie should you know, should participate in that. And and also with this one, which was important to us, there's, you know, they they delineate above the line and below the line, right? Like above the line being like us, the director and the producers, >> um, and below the line being kind of the more bluecollar side of our industry and and >> like painters, grainsmen, camera, everybody else, drivers, >> and so we just wanted we we and believe like when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better, right? It's not it's it's like they've this has kind of been mispriced the whole time. Like the economics have been wrong. Like when there's a when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand on it >> because you see a great director that people rely on or an actor that's considered bankable, they're all going, "Okay, I need all my people with." >> Yeah. Every great director I've worked with, and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular crew members that they that are ride or die with these people because I mean, and you said it to me when we were starting the company, you were like, >> you know, those department heads, you know, who are each handling like, you know, cinemat, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric, like all these this those people are ultimately the people who make the movie good. Like they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is. And imagine once [clears throat] you get a good flow with a great crew, like you got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need to bring in new band members. Let's let's do this again. >> Yeah. And because then and then like you have the situation where they all are filmmakers too. Everybody knows what we're trying to do. So like then what makes it, you know, you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something [ __ ] magical in some moment. You have to like if people are tight or they've been out of shape or, you know, [ __ ] up the environment, people aren't relaxed, actors can't do their best work. And that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if you say like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people, but if you look around like what's Colin Anderson, camera operator, right? Not the cinematographer, >> but I would tell you he's the I think he's the greatest camera operator there is in Hollywood. If you want evidence that he shot Marty Supreme, he was a camera opera in one battle after another. You know, he's you look at his resume and you're like, "Oh, that's interesting. These are all [ __ ] great movies." Now, is he personally responsible for all of it? No, because it's a collaborative medium. There is no like you can be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that, sing, write music. You can't do this job alone. Like there are a lot of people that go into it. You know, even my real like Matt was the lead in the last movie I did air that I directed. Having somebody so [ __ ] good in your movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't [ __ ] around or playing games or being weird like that sets this tone. Everybody else kind of goes, "Okay, what's Damon like?" Oh, I see this. We're taking it seriously, but nobody's going to be a dick. We're all going to do our job. We're not going to take ourselves too seriously, but we're gonna take the job really seriously. Immediately, everybody kind of snaps into that. That trickle down effect goes across the whole thing. And the I think the the best thing that I know how to do as a director is just create an environment where people feel like they show up, people like me, they're rooting for me. I can [ __ ] embarrass myself and be bad and it's not going to be in the movie and no one's going to make me feel self-conscious and >> I'm listened to my ideas. >> Yeah. And if I have something to offer, they're going to go, "Oh, that's a good idea." You know what I mean? And that that's kind of the trick to in my view. And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people. Every single one of them, you know, guys was, you know, some woman's assistant uh propm is coming up with like the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle and the shoe, they found it on eBay, like that's an extra mile. You know what I mean? And if you make people feel like it matters and you give a [ __ ] and that they're contributing and oh cool, let's do a close-up of that. That's really [ __ ] cool. >> They'll die for you. They'll go all the way and it changes the whole >> if you bonus them. >> Yeah. [laughter] doesn't hurt either. >> You know, it's not just all, you know, it's it's not just there's an actual like codified bonus structure to say like we >> this is a way of recognizing that [ __ ] right? It's like in your paycheck, too. It's not just real and you guys develop this. Is this so something that you like? Kudos to you guys for addressing this first of all and recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and it's so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own. >> We're communists, Joe. [laughter] >> We're from Cambridge. keep the car running. [laughter] >> No, no, but uh but but each each deal has had this kind of each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with, you know, different studios and platforms and stuff like that. And >> it just involved us basically retroactively going, "Hey, we came in under we did a great job. There's extra money. Here you go." Mhm. >> This is the first time that we were able to to actually create like a schedule where it's like because and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix going, "Okay, cool. You think you can make this work? Is this we'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do it." So, we had to say, "Look, we're not asking you to take a cut, but you know, if if we we can and we can tell you if the movie is watched as many hours in the first 90 days as like this movie a that you all know what it is, then that's you know 20% of your let's say, right? You should take a hit." So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonus is more. It's all just pegged to where you're at just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with. >> So they gave us like five different levels, right? Like the first couple we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third maybe we get and then it got to like the fifth one >> kind of like single double triple home run >> home run [ __ ] grand slam. The fifth one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers or something like that. So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like 10% of them watch it again. And we were like K-pop demon this is the biggest but that's what happened. We were laughing and then K-pop Demon Hunters came along and actually did that. That's the first movie that's ever >> Jesus. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over. >> I haven't seen I haven't seen [laughter] it, but I I mean somebody's watching it over and over. >> Yeah. So, dude, people love it. >> I mean, it's you know the the the value of it is that because before this one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like well share your ch there used to be residuals, right? and residuals and it was only for SAG and a few other things but it was like and you knew if you had a line in the movie and the movie a certain number like at the box office well you're going to get another 2,000 bucks and that was a big deal you get that check in the mail and like okay I can pay the rent for another month and I can do that [ __ ] but then it then there was this like sort of illde what constitutes success because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie right it's hard to tell well why did you sign up for this service right so for a while everyone's looking at the first thing that you looked that when you subscribe to somebody, okay, you going to go buy Hulu? What did you watch first? The bear. Well, the bear must be creating value for us. But it's you can't assign a a strict numerical value to it because it's unlike a box office where you can go, well, you know, Oenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever and you know that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing a subscription model, you know, >> it's, you know, whether it's like a gym membership where in the [ __ ] you know, first of the year you're like, I'm going to work out again. I'm going to buy that annual membership. And you go twice or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount. >> Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you're going to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing. You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how much content you could waste the rest of your life sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have, you know, millions of hours more to listen to or watch. And you're right, like when we started researching that and built our own data to poll people and examine all this stuff, it's it's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time. if you said like the new stuff is theoretically what what keeps people with the subscription or whatever but in terms of like volume of time I think and doesn't come from them but it looks a lot like you know going to watch like orange and new black and the episode of suits and the old Seinfeld and Friends and what you know um Cupcake Wars or you know that that's what's cuz Americans watch six hours of TV a day right >> that's crazy >> and then the other six hours they're on their phone how [laughter] does anything get done how does anything get done >> when you started to make this film like what what is the process like how did you guys agree on it like what did you guys have it written first >> was Joe so >> before you knew you were going to Netflix with it >> yeah yeah he came to us with the script and we've known Joe for a really he did a movie his first movie is called Narc I don't know if you ever saw terrific great movie >> so we met him way back this 25 years ago or something like that and so we met him met him back then and Ben did a movie of his4 four, I think. And so we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years and and he just sent this to us and said and we read it and we thought it was great and and and and bought it for the company and then we started talking to Joe about, you know, how he saw, you know, how he wanted to do it and and he suggested that we actually do the movie. Um, and we and we were like, "Yeah, why don't we do it? It seems >> basically because we liked and part of it's like we're not trying to just do our movies. We want to be, you know, doing movies with all these the people that we like and respect and and and then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like the historically the way it's worked is like the, you know, a studio will own a an IB or a script or whatever and then you cut and they'll say, "Okay, we want you to do it." Okay, well, how much? Well, how much did you get for the last one, right? And you go then what's the budget? And then that's how they assign a value to it, right? But like my belief was well especially when these streamers are like coming into the market and and chasing stuff is like this movie may may be worth more it may be worth less and that like we're all just subject to that so we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it you know prata and essentially that that was the same process we've done eight I guess movies or so now and and uh we took it out and you know people wanted it and then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize and was like, "Okay, great. That's that's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template that other people go, hey, we want to do that thing, you know, and then go, oh, here's the paperwork." >> Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people say that they would want to do it, but it now now that template exists. So, it's like plugandplay. So, if you if you're not full of [ __ ] and you really do mean that, then guess what? Just take this and >> and it also is going to let you, you know, I hope like manage the risk. In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, [ __ ] we got to invest all this money in the movie. So, you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable. That's too edgy or can't be R-rated because it costs this. I get it right. You're going to put all your money into it. You want you don't want money to [ __ ] disappear. You want to make money. Okay. So, if like when we wrote the first movie that Goodwill Hunting, it was like we knew that had to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie with us. >> Two [ __ ] that no one heard of. So, it was like, okay, what can we do? That's interesting that and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie. That same logic like carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something. So what I'd like to have happen is to say, okay, now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that like in success will actually benefit, we can lower, you know, the price upfront for you so that you can have a low [ __ ] barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting. That's that's an original idea. That's a you know that's an ABM or sinners or [ __ ] Marty Supreme or whatever it is and and then if it's successful we're not all sitting here like [ __ ] where you know you guys walk off with all the money but and you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more interesting stuff. A lot of the stuff that was going on with the strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business. like what where do you feel is going to be like the biggest problem with AI? Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's a lot of that where they want they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's also you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence. You're going to have scenes that don't involve people. And it gets weird, right? >> It gets really weird. But there's actually an area for him. >> Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like my belief is it's sort of like what's going to happen with electricity. >> Well, a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity. Some of it's going to be good. Some of it's going to change stuff. Some of it's going to be like, you know, this is going to be, you know, [ __ ] that kills a bunch of people. Like, it's it's it's opening a door that you can't um you know, say, well, talk about in a kind of a blanket way. But I think with what I see is like for example, if you try to get Chat GBT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean to the average. And it's and it's not reliable. And it's I mean, I just can't even stand to see what writes. Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, "Uh, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets and it can give you some examples of that. I actually don't think it's very likely that it can it's going to be able to write anything meaningful or and in particular that it's going to be making movies like from whole cloth like Tilly Nor like that's [ __ ] I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's not I think it actually it turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. Um and really what it is is going to be a tool just like sort of visual effects and yeah it needs to have language around it. You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. You're those laws already exist. You can't I can't sell your [ __ ] picture for money. I can't. You can sue me. Period. I might have the ability to draw you to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law. And the unions are going to I think the guilds are going to manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and you know whatever it is and but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole. It'll save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're going to focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful just like Spencer Tracy and Katherryn Heburn used to be like driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them. and look goofy and you [laughter] know now you know in computer gener people use a lot of computerenerated stuff and some of it is going to replace just that like instead of uh 500 guys in Singapore you know making $2 an hour to to render all the graphics for a superhero movie there's going to be able to do that a lot easier there's already laws around and guild guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use but also we've been tiling extras like there weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth you know what I mean there aren't Invictus there weren't all those people in the stadium like that's something we've been doing. It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense this existential dread. It's going to wipe everything out. >> But that actually runs counter in my view to what history seems to show which is a adoption is slow. It's incremental. >> Um I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies where they go we're going to change everything in two years. There's going to be no more work. Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that like oh you know as soon as we do the next model it's going to scale up can be three times as good except that actually chatp5 about 25 time% better than chatbt4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data so when they say that's like plateauing the early AI the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because and yes it'll get better but it's going to be really expensive to get better and a lot of people are like [ __ ] this we want chatb4 because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like as like companion bots to chat with at night and stuff. There's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it. I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to like focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sick ofantic. But that's sort of a side issue. I think for this particular purpose, like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and they make it harder to do it and it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it. Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people, you know, like you're you still appreciate a handmade table, you know? You're you're going to appreciate like Did you see um uh The Beast in Me, Claire Danes? >> Yeah. >> No, I didn't. [ __ ] great. >> Yeah, I heard it was great. >> That lady terrific. >> When she's in a scene, you're just like Jesus Christ. Like great. >> Like you like her [ __ ] lips are quivering like you believe everything that she's saying. But you're right, people want that. My kids want [ __ ] cassette. >> I'll say like I I did this interview [clears throat] with uh with Dwayne Johnson because they, you know, they when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them, you know. And I did this interview with Dwayne and and and I asked him, there's this scene in the Smashing Machine where where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital. >> Yeah. >> And and it really walloped me this scene. I thought it was so great. And and I asked him and I was just like, "Can you just tell me about this scene? Like, did Benny Benny Safy directed it? Did Benny write this write that? Did you work on that scene with them? Did you?" He goes, "No, we we actually worked on it together." And I go, "But how did that scene come to be?" And Dwayne goes, "Well, my father was an alcoholic." And I don't remember if he said substance abuse or alcoholic, but I didn't know the man. I don't want to impug him, but but he had he had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, "And and when he would talk to me, uh, you know, that's how he would defend himself." It was almost a bargaining thing because there's this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in this scene. He's he's going like he's going like, "Yeah, isn't it crazy?" And then I woke up and I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him. And you see him and he's kind of tap dancing and his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire. And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head. And it's like and it's and it's I mean it just it was I'm I'm not doing it justice if you haven't I mean I know you I know you've seen >> but um he said yeah. So he explains that about his father and then he goes and and uh when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer. I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed and when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head and [snorts] I looked at her and she just looked like a little like a little kid, you know, and I was like, "All right." [snorts] Like, so that right is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right, from his life experience. And the actor in him, right, sees this scene, goes into his memory pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene, and he can marry them together in the scene, and then he goes and performs it that way. And [clears throat] a dude walking in off the road, goes to the movies, sees this, understands somehow that it's [ __ ] real. I I didn't know why. I That's why I wanted to ask him, how did that scene come to be? genuinely didn't know and made me tear up and you know like that is >> there's no [ __ ] AI that can do that. >> No, it's the whole lot more than photorealistic images. >> Yeah, you you could you could you could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move his face into different No [ __ ] thing could ever do that. >> The complications of real life experiences relayed. >> That is a completely human That is an that is an artist. That's a piece of art, right? that comes out of a lived human experience. >> That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments where Emily Blunt is arguing in that movie. I said I really said I I I was like that I think I think that's the best she's ever been. I love you know we live in the same building in New York. She's like very dear friend of mine and I and I I I I was like I I really think that's the best she's ever been. And then I said and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan and and he kind of stopped and looked at me like he didn't say it but he was kind of like she's pretty [ __ ] good in my movie too. [laughter] >> Well, she's great period. [clears throat] She's great period. >> She's great period. But there's something about that. Well, I knew Mark. I I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC. So, [cough] I knew the whole journey of him. And I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this [ __ ] superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he gets to be that, but be an a great actor. And you know, you can't really get a person >> to look like that >> to express emotions and and and he was Mark Kerr. If you know Mark, I mean, it was [ __ ] great actor. >> I completely forgot it was him and somebody who had seen it before told me that was going to happen and I was like, "All right, we'll see." Yeah. [laughter] And it was like from the second it started >> it didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of like the amount of people that went to see it. But I think overall in time people appreciated. >> Yeah. That's one people go back to and talk about >> because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot of people are like I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of [ __ ] meatheads. But it's not. It's just a movie that happens to be around MMA but MMA. But it's a great movie. The the the scenes are [ __ ] fantastic. The acting is so good and the right and even the the fight scenes. They're so realistic, man. It's really like they I've saw all those fights. They recreated those fights about as good as you can get >> and just his crazy struggle. And you know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine. >> No. >> So, The Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride. And he was the most terrifying guy in the world. He was 265 lb of solid muscle just blowing through people. Didn't even look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him. No one knew he was a drug addict. No one knew. And he spiraled out as they were filming. And he let them film him. Let them film him shooting up. let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all this [ __ ] everywhere and just completely falling apart. While they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart like live in front of the documentary. It was [ __ ] amazing documentary. >> I got to see it. >> It's really good. But the I was so happy that they put it in a film and I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in. >> Yeah. And by and by like galactic success, too, right? I mean, it's it's it's he he has he had to >> and will continue to have to >> push >> for that, right? Because it's [clears throat] what he wants, right? and not because what because what what they are going to continue to want him to do is you know the thing that that that mints them money. Um >> yeah but I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie >> from the conversations I've had with him. Yeah. This this is this is >> this has changed him. >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean it's like this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're going to be boxed. Yeah. And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box. >> And so you see him now, he's thinner. He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing, too, right? He wanted to be he wanted to have more range, wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things. >> Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right? It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days, try coming from wrestling to to like the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very it's like it's incredible that he did that and now he's in this place where he's got this leverage as because he's so beloved and you know that that he can kind of tailor the tailor what he wants from from here on out. >> It's hard to bring the audience with you and like no no I know you like this thing but let me let me show you something else. You know it's sort of like you go to the concert the band wants to play the new songs and play the [ __ ] hits. [laughter] You know it's always a little gilded gaze. All right. [ __ ] it. satisfaction. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, I love the song, too. >> You know, my my acoustic thing that I did, you know. >> Yeah. I went to see the Stones and when they were here in town and there was a few songs they played that were like new songs. >> Oh, really? See the audience is like, "Okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the other one." [laughter] >> Yeah. That's But I mean, but you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice. And he's made it. and and it was amazing vehicle too cuz he still kept that superhuman hulkish frame and then but also showed like god there's like amazing depth there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's the thing that's I think especially because it's a it's collaborative it happens with other people. That's what movies do that other [ __ ] doesn't do which is just create like you feel for people. It's empathy. It's all made up right that's not him. That's all it's all an illusion all [ __ ] But if you do it really well with like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something like all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches like these things in ourselves, you know, it has that same effect that Dwayne went through of articulate to you about like these moments that were kind of burned into his memory. Then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own [ __ ] like, oh yeah, I my father died or I went through this with my kid or I'm [ __ ] I feel [ __ ] alone and and and and miserable and and here's this like hopeful moment that someone has to go maybe I can maybe I can do something, you know, they inspire you, they touch you, they move you and the thing to go for. The other thing is, you know, it's a is to to tell a lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all. And it's a >> either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few hours and hopefully it breeds compassion. >> Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there when the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people. You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawk about this. There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon when in uh that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world. I forget the name of it. >> Right. Yeah, tomorrow something people will find it. But it's great, great [ __ ] movie. But there's this scene where he's trying to get he's talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him. And it's so [ __ ] I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter. Like you're [ __ ] locked in. You're locked in. You're like, "Oh shit." Like that's the magic. And And he was like, "But I'm locked in too." Like that's it's like a hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way. Like you you have the lines, but you're living it. And so, and that's either done or it's not done. And when it's not done, >> you could tell someone's kind of just performative. >> You feel it when you're watching it. >> Yes. >> If if it does that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening. >> That's the magic of film. >> And sometimes you trick people, I guess, but for the most part, >> for the most part, you don't. you're feeling it and you it's really happening. It's much more like >> other human beings recognize human beings experiencing real [ __ ] Yes. They they mirror like I know what >> sorrow looks like without having to [ __ ] I can't break it down for you or I even you know you we all know kind of what like oh he's a little anxious right now or did I maybe offend him or you know all these little things and when some like in the rare moments when these big feelings or the things happen you feel it too you know and you usually like an example is there's an old saying about like you know actors try to cry people try not to cry Like because when you're really experiencing that [ __ ] you don't want people to see it. You want to hide it. You want to No, I'm okay. I'm fine. You know, it's like >> you want to pull the sheet up over Exactly. Exactly. >> But the other thing that's really interesting from from our side of doing it, because he and I have talked about this a lot, is and I've always said publicly, like great actors are good enough for both of you. Like when you're in a scene with a great actor, >> that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever you want to call it, that energy, that that place where you go, right? >> They're bringing you right where they [ __ ] tractor beam. They will suck you right in with them. And like as quickly as you look into their eyes and you're like, you're like just there. And it's like, and it's not like it's like riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life, >> you know? It can be the hardest thing in the world and it can be the easiest thing in the world. When you're with a great actor, it just it's just if the scenes >> Yeah, that's the real paradox is like all the stuff that I'm the most proud of, the weird thing about us has felt very easy at the time. And the [ __ ] where you're banging your head against the wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and the whole thing and it just >> it ends up [ __ ] feeling empty. And the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is I'm my insecurity is like should be harder than this, right? Are we are like we work hard enough? Are we get you know >> and learn to kind of just trust that? Go feels good. Let's just keep going, you know? Well, there's some scenes in this movie without giving too much away where there's conflict between you two guys that seem so real and that's even harder to recreate because you guys are good friends and you're making the movie together and you've got this scene where you're acting in this and with the conflict with the two of you guys the movie, but it's very [ __ ] real. >> The reason that it was real is that I like that scene. The reason it's it it it works, I think, is because he's coming at me and he's he really needs to know something and I'm completely blanking him. >> Like I'm just he's going, "You got to tell me what's going on, man." He's like, "It's awesome." Like, "What what is going what is the thing?" And I'm and I'm just like literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre way which which like was really frustrating him in real life because he he was that feeling of like it's [ __ ] tell me dude it's you and me like when he finally goes he screams out I don't trust you right now that's a [ __ ] problem right which is like what you would say to an old friend like what are you doing man like what >> what what are you do like tell me the [ __ ] the betrayal me or tell me the truth. Lie, lie to me or tell me talk to me and like step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden >> just act like >> give me this weird look of just like I don't know, you know, like [laughter] and so when we were doing the scene, it was really [ __ ] pissing [laughter] him off. I could see him like getting >> There's the one line that wasn't written that I saw I didn't remember doing was, "I would have never [ __ ] you like this." >> I I would have never [ __ ] you like this. Yeah. >> Which I didn't even remember saying is George, I like that. Keep that thing. I wouldn't have [ __ ] you. And I was I thought I was like what is he what did I just you and I so watched the playback. It wasn't those rare moments again. It was like where it was that thing of you doing all the work by by not doing anything which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made and it just was confusing and felt like just you know leaving you out in the [ __ ] cold. I the only thing I could rely on is like I you know I I would I wouldn't do this to you [laughter] you know. So do you have in those moments where you're you're ad living a line where a line come is it just just that feels like that's what you say? >> Yeah. >> It's just kind of like he couldn't stop from saying it, right? You know, >> but you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay. You know what I mean? Cuz the part of your brain that will like govern you or tell you something's not okay, whatever, will step in if it's sort of like, you know, listen, I expect you to [ __ ] do this boxes. And there's there's uh directors and writers who who really do really care about every word precisely and that you know and that's that's how they do it and that's fine. That could be great too. For me like it it I find it's it becomes more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens if you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines. I don't have to say any of the lines in the scene. Then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right. But it but like it's that it's that fake thing that never happens in life which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think what's my next line? What am I supposed to say and how should I say that? >> And it's not about the lines ever. It's not about the word. It's about what's h what's the scene about? What's happening in the scene? >> It's one of the reasons why curb curb your enthusiasm is so great >> cuz Larry David just gives you a place to get to. >> Yeah. Like >> it gives them an ag kind of a loose agenda of what's going to happen >> and then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out. >> Yeah. And a lot of times that show's about the awkward [ __ ] in between when people are missing each other or not not sure of themselves and a little embarrassed. >> [ __ ] genius show. >> It really is. >> And and and people talk like we're talking like you occasionally talk over each other. There's a stumble. There's no one know like what what what the [ __ ] are you talk? There's weirdness [snorts] to >> because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen, right? And that is that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors I think is is it's really all about listening. And like I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass and that's how he works where he where you just know the agenda going in. You know some basic things that you you know what your guy needs going in. Like I was playing a chief warrant officer and I had to go through a door and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him and I this is what I needed to know from him. I needed to secure the house with my guys and I needed to get to this guy. We needed to make sure everybody here was secure. So, and it just and they and he put me with a bunch of real combat veterans and we [ __ ] went in and you know they're the >> another thing that does your job for you. >> It's just being around the real people. >> Joe putting the the cops from Miami, you know, on these parts and it just like by osmosis you feel more legitimate. The thing feels more authentic to the audience. You don't know why because you don't know what the how what the [ __ ] culture is of the nar tactical narcotics team in Miami. But when you see the real guys, you kind of oh you're like, "Yeah, that seems right." >> Miami was a perfect place to have it, too. >> Miami. >> Well, it's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics [snorts] team in in in Miami. And and uh and the guy who ran that, this guy Chris Casiano is Joe's friend and he's the guy that my character is based on. Um, so Chris was Chris we went, you know, we rode along with Chris down there. We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them and then they came up and they were, you know, all in the movie and Chris was around as a technical adviser the whole time. So any question like little details, all right, how do I go through this door? What do I do? What do you do here? What's the what's the protocol here? What you know, all of that stuff was kind of overseen by him so that it so that it was how they really do it. >> That whole [ __ ] town is so Did you ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes. >> Oh [ __ ] >> The entire [ __ ] graduating class of the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail. [laughter] >> But that's what happens. All of a sudden you push so much [ __ ] money into something, right? And it's like and before they even kind of figured out like >> you know and it was there wasn't even a lot of stigma. I was like, "Ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys fun drug." But, you know, is there some statistic about like, you know, the amount of money in the banks in Miami was like the same as the rest of the country? >> More [laughter] banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country >> because they were just laundering money and they got away with it. They literally got away with it. >> Have you ever flown over biminy? You know, the island. So, so if you fly over, ever fly over Biminy, there are all these like Cessnas underwater, all these planes like around the island cuz what they used to do, Bimin is like the closest it's 50 miles off the coast of Florida. Um they would they would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water. They would land it on purpose. >> On purpose because there's no runway on Biminy. No, it's like [ __ ] it. We're going to dump the plane in the >> They would have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking, right? And and then they put it they put [laughter] the Coast Guard like figures. They're always coming for them. That's why they have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into one of the boats >> and they got a one out of 10 chance of making it. They just scatter >> and the Coast Guard goes after one of them and hopes they get the right one and not. It's just like, "No, it's just taking a cruise tonight. What's the problem, officer?" >> But the planes are still all submerged. Like you could The water's so clear. You can see >> how many [ __ ] Oh, wow. >> There you go. >> Wow. >> That's crazy. How many [ __ ] planes are out there? >> I flew over it probably 20 years ago. But I mean there's >> Yeah, >> that wasn't a >> I don't know how long I mean but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cessnas probably wasn't I mean with the amount of drugs they were moving on on Yeah. There you go. >> [ __ ] wild. >> That's great. They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow. [laughter] >> Yeah. They land and it's like >> [ __ ] it. We can swim >> 5 to 10 feet of water and what do they they land at whatever 55 knots. So you just try to >> looks nice too like sure you can be comfortable but I mean Sully landed a 737 or whatever it was in water. >> Yeah. [ __ ] wild. What a crazy part of our culture that that happened. >> Yeah. >> That the the the whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular like Miami Vice all that [ __ ] like it's like it shaped the entire country >> for sure. >> Oh yeah. I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like I think he was from Boston and he was like the pilot and he had figured out the route and he was like man >> like we could have gotten away with this forever. [laughter] >> It was somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught. He was like I I had it all. He was clearly really smart. >> One of the guys did too. You know what I mean? There's a whole lot of people out there that were like yeah we had a nice run back. [laughter] >> It's why I got eight houses. You know it's like >> Oh yeah. That's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country. There's a lot of people that got very wealthy, including banks, which is just really crazy. >> Banks or the jewelry companies, [ __ ] Jag. There was like more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than everywhere else in the country. And it was like doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep. I guess a lot of people like our cars here. >> You don't say all cash. Sure. [laughter] >> Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure. Well, how many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about? >> It's probably worth just checking. >> When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up. >> Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot. >> Get a truck. [laughter] >> Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it. >> They were making so much money, they just had to bury it places. >> That's [ __ ] crazy. Well, it's why it's a perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because you know that the situation that the cops without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops turn dirty. It's because it just get temptation. It's like you take this these people, you know, you got like six, seven people, they [ __ ] work for a living. They have the same [ __ ] they have to deal with. And there's $20 million, you know, and it's I mean it makes for a great like drama too. Even like the you know in the performances because all of a sudden somebody's thinking like okay how are they going to react you know who be the first person to say you I'm going to have to turn this all in you know and and like getting to play that [ __ ] And for me also I like you know without being you know sanctimonious or preachy because I really think movies we're talking about like what they do well what they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. as soon as you get into that thing. >> Yeah. >> The audience is like, I you know, I'm going to go to church for that or [ __ ] school for I don't need that [ __ ] here. Um, but I like that what was underneath it is like this is a [ __ ] hard job and and that there's a lot like there's a lot of value like the these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job are trying to get through the day and just at the end of the day have done their job like they said they were going to do, you know, adhere to the [ __ ] ethics that they're supposed to and at the end of the day be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not [ __ ] stealing the money or flipping somebody over, you know what I mean? And doing all that [ __ ] And that's the win. The wind doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or [ __ ] you know save the world from uh you know the evil scientist laser beam or whatever. It's like the end of the day if you can [ __ ] live with yourself and say look you know I quitted myself according to what the [ __ ] expectations were and what my true to my word and I I think there's so like that's a I don't know that that affected me. I I found that kind of moving and and you can't do it if you create like if you to credit to Joe Script like just two dimensional characters. I'm the hero, I'm the villain or this person would never do that. They all have to be real people like you would be subject to like >> temptation. Money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's going to make your life better. You're you know it's something different to everybody. But, you know, and especially when you're like you're facing like real, you know, the custody thing or the, you know, the sick relative or or whatever it is, that's it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to to to that kind of temptation. You know, sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, "Oh, well, you're dirty." You're not putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling like undervalued. I like the woman scene where Catalina is like, "I get [ __ ] pissed. I get yelled at. I get [ __ ] on." You know what I mean? like I'm out here grinding every [ __ ] day. >> You know, it's uh it's a lot to a lot to ask and I think it's it's worth kind of making that, you know, heroic without sort of indicating too much. >> No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments. It's a it's a and that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one movie moment in a movie where you're like, "What? Come on. How do you do that? That's >> convenient." You guys don't have any of those. There's none of that. And I loved it. I loved it. I loved that that aspect of it too where it felt like all of it was like I believed it. >> I believed it. >> And that that's really a credit to Joe and his like taste [clears throat] and that's why we really thought like this guy knew how to make narc. He kind of obviously understood this world and understood that it has to >> above all it has to feel real and that's why he was open to like okay whatever happens you throw in a line maybe it's good. can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know, but like you got to be able to take that shot and we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people. I mean, I kind of feel for these cops, a bunch of actors descend on you and they're like, "What what kind of sweatshirt is that?" You know, [laughter] >> it was like that Michael J. Fox, James Woods [snorts] movie. Remember that movie when he I forget what it was called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods. He's he's studying him for a character and James Woods is a real like detective and he's just like, >> "Get this guy away from me." I kept thinking of that >> kind of hair gel you use. >> Yeah. Yeah. like all these questions, [laughter] you know, but they were very tolerant of us, which was which was nice and and uh and uh and really really helpful, you know, because it's all it's always details. It's always details. It's like how fastidiously do you do you kind of mind for those details? Cuz I'm I've always been convinced that like an audience, >> it's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something. They feel it. They just don't believe it. >> And it's usually because those details are you you don't get those >> and that's the only thing like I'm not great at imagining something let's invent this everything that I've done like that I that I like is been a result of something I found to research like for the town I went down and just went through the you know all the prisons you know out there in Massachusetts federal prisons state prisons and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks and you know kind of sometimes you know you want to know and then sat down with the FBI guys and was like what are they like and the great [ __ ] you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in like uh I'm in like wet wallpap or I'm in the prison denim or whatever and I'm to some guy I said like after talking for two hours, you know, I was like, "Does anything just [ __ ] weird ever happened or [ __ ] up? Anything you remember?" The guy was like, "Yeah, one time uh you know, we were coming out of this thing, we robbed his truck and you know, we we had the mask, we got the switch car, we drove around the corner and whatever. We pull up and we get out [ __ ] guns and the mass hold things and we look over and it's this cop sitting there doing construction duty and I was like right then didn't even tell me the story. I was like oh [ __ ] I was like what happened? He goes, you know, he looked at us, we looked at him, he looked the other way. >> Whoa. >> And I was like, really? He goes, yeah, he didn't want to end up on the wall at the VFW. >> It was like >> these guys with full automatic weapons, masks on switching cars. I was like, "All right, I'm putting that in the movie." >> And it's it's in the it's a great moment in the town, like in the movie cuz you know, Rener, they all jump out of the things and then and he Oh, yeah. Here it is. >> Exactly. >> It was like >> It's great. And it's this awkward. >> They just stop and dude. >> He sees him. They see him. >> He's [clears throat] like a [ __ ] We have to kill this guy. >> Nope. He turns away. >> Okay. Wow. [laughter] >> It's such a great But that's straight from research. I always love that story. Um and then he and then the line is here that he put it here >> and one on the wall of BFW. Yeah. It was a great, you know, it's a great line. >> It was such a simple explanation for what why do you think what do you think he did, you know, and why? Like >> and that's exactly what it would have been like that guy next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the VFW. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> You know, and he knew it and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to do it like that. You know, that was and that that kind of stuff is uh I don't know. It's very human human calculations and interact. I a very extreme version of it, but it also doesn't have sometimes. It's not dramatic at all, you know? It's like that was an easy decision and the guy never says anything. I didn't say anything, you know, and kind of can't really blame him, you know? It's uh >> The Town was a great [ __ ] movie, too, man. And I I knew a lot of people like that, you know, from boxing gyms and stuff. I I knew a guy who was a hitman for Whitey Bulier. >> I knew a guy who was a a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that for murder for killing people. >> Yeah. >> What town did you grow up in? >> I lived in Newton. I Yeah. I grew up in I lived in Jamaica playing for a little while and I lived in Newton, but I I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting. I was mostly training. And so I was around a lot of these like very shady characters >> who were in the fighting world and a lot of them had backgrounds in crime. one of the guys that I went to that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while and then he got uh arrested because a guy got killed and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting him with cocaine to keep him keep him awake while they were doing it and then they cut his hands off and cut his head off. Jesus. >> And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that. >> Jesus. >> Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's dead now, but he was it somehow or another at least peripherilally involved. >> Yeah. Well, I didn't do any fighting, but I I went around and found a lot of the one of the things about be, you know, being an actor, people will talk to you, you know, which is a [ __ ] amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, "Oh yeah, I killed guys." You know, they'll just come out and like it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply. Like these guys in the prison, what the [ __ ] are they going to talk? You know what I mean? But they're like interested in it for whatever. And you know, so so you avail yourself of that and and then I had like, you know, we had people around that movie who everybody knew, yeah, he did that job. He he never got arrested. And so like, yeah, people, you know, meet PE, you know, and and uh and talk to him. And it's interesting because the such a good lesson for for doing this job which is that they're never how you think they're supposed to be like the murderer person, you know, there's always something a little I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent kind of loose cannon [ __ ] >> guy who supposedly had done all this [ __ ] stabbed and killed two people Faniel Hall and shot these guys in a in a robbery and he like shows up with his polo shirt kind of tucked in, you know, how's it going? you know, just like I never would have [ __ ] put this guy on [ __ ] killing [laughter] four people, you know what I mean? And they got to have a good time. So, I love that one movie and you're just thinking, [ __ ] man. Like, this is what And it's a really good lesson for like, you know, we tend to read a script and okay, this guy's the tough guy and he's going to be the it's like you work with like I have the [ __ ] like the opportunity to train with these Delta guys like you know, it's the most elite special forces combat [ __ ] operators in the world. I mean, I suppose the seals will take exception to that, but what just numerically, right? I think there's been less than 900 guys ever in the history of Delta. You meet them and it's they're not the biggest guys. They're not the toughest guys. They're not trying to [ __ ] be hard and, you know, they're the most relaxed at ease and it, you know, I found myself just being like finally I was like, what can I just ask what do you think makes somebody like qualify for the the Delta Force? Like what's a good Delta operator? He's like, "Uh, you know, problem solving." Problem solving? The guy goes, "Yeah, it's probably like your job." I was like, "No, let me take notice. [laughter] It's really not like my job." I appreciate it. A very big [ __ ] difference. He's like, "Yeah, you solve problems like trying to kill me." See, that's the thing. [laughter] But that that [snorts] was the closest insight I got to it, which was I've always kind of thought this about like a guys like like Brady or something. There's guys that just don't get tight and that they they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered [ __ ] six to one. How do you think we should get home? like just having your wits about you to make that calculation while by the way you're in a [ __ ] gunfight and things you know I'm sure that does make cuz those are the people where it was I'd be in a [ __ ] panic and I have no idea what to do and you get like attracted to the person who who's like seems to have it like hey I'm it's good we're going to be okay everybody get your [ __ ] we're going over here you'll just follow that guy you know what I mean >> and uh but it's a good it's not always the most >> maybe it's just because they're so confident they're not like I Like I don't need to prove that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't even get it in fights like have a weapon, you know what I mean? [laughter] It's kind of like it's it's just a it surprises me what it how those kinds of like extraordinary experiences in people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in how they show up, >> right? We have caricatures in our head of what like these tough people are like. Well, you you see that about MMA fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA fighters. you meet them, they're like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in the world. >> I remember going to one of the events at in LA. I think it was a Staples and and I was backstage and and was talking to uh one of like the lawyers for the UFC about we were talking about Conor McGregor and he was telling me a great story about him and [snorts] this guy walks up and he's in a like chinos like khaki pants and like a blue button-up like you know kind of business shirt with spectacles and he's very small and I kind of don't really regard him and I'm still hearing this story. And then Patrick goes, "Matt, do you know Henry?" And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And I'm like, "This [ __ ] guy could wreck me, right? [laughter] Absolutely [ __ ] destroy me." And he and he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on. >> Yeah. [clears throat] You know what I mean? Like he does not he's not carrying himself like he's he just is the thing, you know? >> And they find out a little bit too late. >> Yeah. Don't find that one out late. Yeah. >> Yeah. A lot of guys do, >> unfortunately. Yeah, that's uh it's uh well, they don't have to prove themselves, right? They do it all the time. The same with Delta Force guys. Like this idea like this like outwardly brash tough guy. Usually that kind of machismo and >> that's [ __ ] That's you're you're using that cuz you're insecure. The secure people are very calm and and genuinely very friendly. >> Really nice. Yeah, that's been my experience. >> Yeah, it's crazy, right? Beautiful, too. You know, I've kind of like >> what a great guy. And you feel like that's nice of you to be so so sweet to me cuz you obviously you don't have to be. [laughter] >> I'll just give you my watch if you wanted that. >> Yeah. No, it's it is a fascinating thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what what a a tough man is, what a good woman is, what this is, what that is. M >> as I think one of the beautiful things about film when a film is really good is you see these complex characters and it sort of like reformulates in your mind like what a person actually is. >> Yeah. It's seeing all kinds of different people. Yeah. >> You know and and Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. >> I mean look the fundamental like challenge I think in life and is like it's like to find some humility which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the [ __ ] that you're pretty sure about. And it means that like you kind of have to assume somebody else might have a point, you know? It's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees with you because [ __ ] him, he's an [ __ ] He's, you know, like those are things that actually take work to get to because the the first instinct because you just defend your idea or whatever. It's easier is to just >> that it's a zero sum game. Yeah. That that two competing ideas can't exist. that somebody can't be a good person like if you decide it's you disagree we don't believe so I don't know what about this or what about that >> but once you find yourself relying on like well I need to like zero out this person's humanity in order to defend my idea >> I think that's a pretty good indicator that like there's something wrong with the way you're thinking like because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees with you >> I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Sopranos is that the main character The guy that you loved was a [ __ ] murderer. >> Yeah. >> He was like who would murder his friends. >> He was a a complete mobster and a thug. But you really loved him. >> Loved the [ __ ] out of cared about. It was so complicated. My daughter doing the part that you found yourself being like, I don't I think you probably has to kill him now. I gota kill. >> That's also that's also great a great actor. Like there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did street car Named Desire and Tennessee Williams who wrote it like freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalsski he was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalsski and Tennessee Williams was like but I wrote him as a brute. He's this he was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and you know and and was just and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play. But Brando was like, "No, he's a human being and I'm gonna play him like a [ __ ] human being and and it changed the the play." But but Williams reflects life in the real world. Everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing and people don't set out to be like, I'm just going to or hurt someone or dominate the world. Like you think, well, I got to protect what I have. It's like even, you know, not bringing back to this movie, but it's like what I liked about RIP was it was kind of the slippery slope. you know that first time you take a little money and then well you know I gota cover that I don't want to go to jail and my reason why I did that but now I've told a lie now I got to cover that thing and now you have guys who both live by this code that's very hey you protect the people who are with you and you got to have this [ __ ] and so now it's two people are very similar like by that kind of slippery slope ultimately find themselves you know willing to kill one another uh because and it's really not I don't I don't believe in that one choice turn it's like more how do you find yourself, you dig yourself in a [ __ ] hole cuz you're just covering up the la trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know, and everybody thinks a b is of course the roots for themsel is like empathize with themselves. That's what we have to be concerned with ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic [ __ ] It's a hard to expect people to go like, "All right, and and and what about, you know, like what they think?" And I and I think that's I think it's a it's a much more honest evaluation of people. And it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and [ __ ] all the [ __ ] that's sort of beautiful about people like rather than this notion of like, well, we're going to be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever, and any infraction then it's like permanently stains you. Right. Like we were talking about earlier about people that have been cancelled, you know, that that this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did and now we're going to exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization for life >> in perpetuity. Yeah. >> It's [ __ ] crazy. And it's >> Yeah. I was because because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail for 18 months or whatever to and and and then come out and say, "No, but I that that we can't I I paid my debt. Like, we're done. Like, can we be done?" Like, the the the thing about about that, you know, getting kind of excoriated publicly like that, it's it just never ends. And it's and it's the first thing that you know it's just it just will follow you to the grave. I think >> it's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye. They have this like desire to chop them down always, you know, and anybody that stumbles in the public eye. They want to destroy their life and they want to just pile on and you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy. You're not talking to they're not a human being. It's just text on a screen. >> Right. >> Yeah. It's just like kind of like I was saying like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, "Oh, he's in trouble." You know, there's this we, you know, human like we have dark [ __ ] up instincts too sometimes to like isolate people or get joy out of someone else's they're in trouble because maybe because part of it saying, "Hey, it's not me, you know." So if you can point the finger, everyone's looking over there. We feel safer, you know? >> Right. >> But it's it's like Yeah. And to to to take any forgiveness out of it, you know, is a really [ __ ] up thing because then it makes it impossible a to actually go, "All right, yeah, I did that. [ __ ] [ __ ] That was wrong. I get it." You know, because it doesn't matter once you've said you've done it. You you become like an outcast. And I don't think anybody wants to think, you know, like you're the sum total of who you are is your worst moment, right? >> You know, it's sort of like >> the you know, you know, I think you want to be judged just as well. Are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful? It's not to say to forget, you know, there's people that just over and over and over again doing horrible [ __ ] don't care. I get it. No one's trying to like absolve that, but you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in a complicated way. Or else it's kind of one become of those things. It's like a >> get one of ours or one of them, the instinct to get like a team tribal oriented and it just becomes a sport, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's also like who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption? That's crazy. Like that's just denying the very nature of human beings >> and that people do things that they regret and they do and then they become better people because of it and to >> yeah some of the people I would rely on the most like trust my kids with the most have done [ __ ] that they that they really regret and you know was yeah objectively wrong and then the people who've been like a [ __ ] I did that I [ __ ] whether it's like addiction I got myself down this [ __ ] route I did this I did this they're able to go I did it I'm sorry it's real I shouldn't have done it it was wrong that actually that those people can become someone that's very trustworthy because you're like this [ __ ] will say if they've done something they'll actually look at their own behavior they'll acknowledge it and then you feel you feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you like I'm I'm no I got all I always get right everything's >> well it's like it's all it's about evolution right and and and in our own personal evolution and we're all in our on our own path towards that like the the the idea of attacking someone it's like Oh, so you you ace the test like put your pencil down like you nailed being human >> you're done that if you nail being human that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness which is a giant >> part you haven't nailed it by definition if you're out there throwing stones >> it's most of the people that I find especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable [ __ ] in their past and it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack. That's that thing like if I can point my finger, it's like no one's going to be >> Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good guy. He's calling them out. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Meanwhile, you know, >> if you like like >> Yeah. I It's like you you were telling me to see uh wake up dead man, the knives out the third knives. It's great. And I watched I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting like >> you know I'm not a religious guy. I don't like that's you know and yeah I'm aware of all the like okay you know there's the religion then there's people who supposed to be rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about like what's the role of grace in life you know and and a really honest examination of that like sitting doesn't side by side with yeah okay you don't believe that but like you and you know and it's not about like whether you're going to argue over [ __ ] evolution. It's about like how graceful are you in your life, you know? How much [ __ ] dignity can you afford other people? And are you willing to recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to to like uh to try to sort of be >> to find that grace to get better, you know? I thought it was really beautiful and kind of rare and >> uh really surprised. >> I was really surprised, too. I I kind of put it on and not, you know, not not thinking murder myster I I loved it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I loved it, too. I think it's one of the best of the three. >> It's uh my favorite. It was my favorite of the three. >> Those are great. Daniel Craig is great in that role. >> He's fantastic. >> I mean, guy goes from James Bond to that and so many other things as well. Joshua Joshua Connor that who played the priest. I because I first saw him on uh on the crown. >> Crown. Yeah, I liked him a lot. >> I [ __ ] Man, what an actor he is. >> Really, really good. >> How much film do you guys consume? Do you do you spend a lot of time watching films? I mean, the company depends. There's a lot like if we're working as we're watching cuts after cuts and going to the editing room, like there's a lot of kind of work around all the stuff that we have going that that that eats into a lot of time. >> I'm mostly trying to keep up with what people are doing. My issue is really that like we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out and are more interesting and very like they're all jammed out at the last [ __ ] month of the year. And so all of a sudden you're trying to race these movies. Yeah. I got really lucky like uh recently my son you know who's 13 decided he wants to like watch movies you know and I like give him [ __ ] like what are you [ __ ] we always looking at Tik Tok and [ __ ] like let's watch a movie and you know he's kind of blowing me off and roll his eyes and like you know I mean if you're a dad you're kind of an [ __ ] fundamentally like come on dad you don't know what's going on you know what I mean like he told me one time he was like dad I said let's watch this movie and I played in the trailer it was it was I can't remember what the movie was it was a good movie and the trailer was good. He just looks at it and goes, "You know what you guys ought to do? You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors." I was just [laughter] like, "Wow." I went and told the editors, I told Billy and Chris, I like, "Guys, I got news for you [laughter] guys." But but now he's like, "All right, let's watch like what are some movies I should watch?" He got Ladder Box. He got into that thing, you know? It's like, so I was like, so I said, "Okay, what are the great movies? I'll give you a list." I started giving him a list. They started watching them. And so, I mean, this is like heaven for me. So I was like, "Okay, what are you watching?" King of Comedy. Like last week I watched Baxi Driver, King K, all these Scorsese movies >> and it really was like, "Oh man, I I cuz in my mind I'm like, "Sure, I've seen that movie. I know it." I watched them again. It was I like seeing I realized how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger. >> And it really and it was just the most beautiful [ __ ] experience for me to watch with my son. Like he's taking an interest. And this is the, you know, the older two have always been a little bit like, "Yeah, dad, no. Great." But hey, you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really. Uh, [laughter] you know what I mean? You guys want to come to the set? No, I'm good. You know, >> well, it's just too much familiarity. You know, you grew up with a dad who's a movie star. You're just like, >> the kids got in and I get it. You got to be your own person, do your thing. They have all their own [ __ ] and I get, you know, I never even So, I never expected it from my son and I don't know that he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't want to lean on him like, hey, get into the family business. >> Um, most of the time it's just like, you know, we go to like basketball games, baseball, all that type of stuff. Um, but it but this was a really that was like I was like so joyful, you know what I mean? To sit there and watch the movies with my my kid. I like I was like this doesn't get better. This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life, you know, right here. Watch this movie and he's like, well, he's telling me what he thinks, you know, just like like honestly the rest of it you can [ __ ] keep it, you know? >> That's awesome. >> That's the best. Well, it's great that you guys still love film, you know, that it's it hasn't become just a job. It hasn't become a thing that you do that you really enjoy it and love it. >> Yeah. It was never a job. I mean, it really like it was it was like the an absolute dream from the time we were kids. We did [ __ ] high school theater together, you know? Like >> that's crazy. >> Yeah. Um, >> it was like we're lucky to get it and lucky to >> the whole idea that you could even the goal was like to make a living >> to not have to be like, well, I'm an actor, you know, slash a waiter, contractor, dental assistant, whatever [laughter] the [ __ ] it is, you know, like actually I can earn money. I can and we always figured like I don't need that much, especially if we have kids. Yeah. You know, okay, we can make a living or it's, you know, maybe it's [ __ ] going to be dinner theater or maybe it's going to be rent. Maybe it's going to be >> there'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it. Yeah. Well, there's something that I mean, I love when people love things. I I I spend time on YouTube watching people like u fix watches, you know, like I I don't know why, but I I love when people make furniture. I love I love watching people do things that they really love that they're invested in. I think we all have that thing in us where we see someone who's got a passion for something, someone who really loves it. And that's what everybody really wants in life, to be lost in the thing you love, to have a purpose. >> And it's beautiful. Watching someone else with true purpose is >> very it's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe versus the volcano where he goes in to buy luggage. >> You like luggage, sir? He's like, uh, he was luggage is the central preoccupation of my life. >> Guy's a luggage salesman and he [ __ ] loves >> nothing more than luggage. And it's the greatest scene. I [laughter] asked Tom Hanks about that when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was like, "Can you tell me about that scene?" Cuz we love this scene so much. And he go and he named the actor. He was a Broadway actor, I guess. the guy he came in he worked for like one day in this scene and he's so good in that movie and then at the very end he's showing him all the luggage and Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend he thinks he's dying and so he basically goes like well what's the best luggage and he goes well if you know and he opens if I had the means sir and he opens up this thing and there's this trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens it and Tom Hanks is like >> I'll take two of them [clears throat] he goes [laughter] may you live to be a thousand years old the greatest day of his >> [laughter] >> Oh god, >> that's amazing. You guys have been in some [ __ ] bangers, man. >> Saving Private Ryan. That opening film, The Storming of the Beach. >> Unbelievable. >> That might be the the most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made. >> So, I remember reading the script and there was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was written. I came late because I'm only in the he shot it chronologically and I'm only in the last, you know, the last act of the movie basically. and and uh and he told me on set I was saying how I go how did it go the beginning go you know there's that all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in and and Stephen goes he just goes I cut I cut all of that out he goes he goes no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie >> and that was when I was like oh my god this movie is going to be [ __ ] >> un >> I think Tom says like I'll see you on the beach or something he scre you know guys are puking >> look at the man next to Yeah, remember he's not going to live to that. That was the script, right? Remember that? It was it was it was look at the man next to you, he won't live. You know, you're like, "Two out of three of you are going to die. So, look at to your left, look to your right, and feel bad for those two sons of [ __ ] cuz they're not going to make it." You know, it was stuff like that. And Stephen's just like, "Nope. >> No, no. These guys are puking. They're It's like the things up. You could just hear, you know, and it's just like and then just boom, and you're into it." And also they did this incredible like cinema changing open the shutter all the way motion blur skip the the bleach process in developing the film. >> I don't and I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there maybe. But I I I just remember maybe it's just the open shutters just yeah it just means that instead of like the motion blur is what makes something that like moves across the frame quickly. If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing. And when you roll those 24 frames, it gives you this the illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light. Each frame takes a super sharp picture. And when you run those together, like the piece of dust goes, >> and so the mortar explosions are going and it and you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing, you know what I mean? And it's just and nobody had ever done it. just the master of the thing, understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea and it's >> that's just masterful. Like that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go ah it's Spielberg, you know, it's that's how you do it. >> It's just like you say, one of those things a guy that's passionate and also, >> you know, caring about something, you know, it's that that to with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness. Yeah. And it's I think why we love to see that whe you know sports [ __ ] you know fighting or whatever it is there's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that that person when you go [ __ ] like when you see Michael Jordan like that was that whole movie that we did airs really all about like what does it mean to be great and how does it like touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to [ __ ] improve their own lives because somebody's just better at at that thing than anybody else in the world. >> Yeah. >> It's it's trans it's fixing you know I mean I find that >> really fascinating like I you know people who are great at something and the mystery of like well what is that like and what does that do to your life and how did you get that way and what does it take you know >> and [snorts] what's the cost >> because to truly be great at something you have to kind of almost abandon everything. I I've seen that in various ways like in that kind of just empirical personal study. I haven't seen anybody who I think like qualifies for that who who didn't also seem to be really suffering 100% >> you know and you're like damn you should be so happy you're the greatest you and you know interviewers always how do you feel right now and there's that sense that like either it's never finished or it's never enough or they can't enjoy it or they're car it's that line we put in air where it's like and you have to be that thing to be that thing >> you know like it's a kind of a burden too in a way >> 100% >> and I just see that and that's why we we want these heroes and people who are great to I don't know, you know, flourish and have their life and have it all in hand. Like there's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too. And I I it's yeah that's like you say there seems to be a real cost. >> Well, there's always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things. And the obsession that you have to be the best at something, you have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else. You have to have this single-minded focus and that comes with a cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships. You feel like a piece of [ __ ] >> and you see that up close and like that's not admirable, right? >> You don't give a [ __ ] about anybody else. No, I do. I just care about this more. >> You know, it's like so imagine that you're making the sacrifices and it's causing injury to people and you know it and you don't want to hurt them but you can't help it >> and you're getting rewarded for it. You know, it's >> it's complicated. Yeah. That's >> it's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationship. [laughter] >> Right. That's right. >> Maybe that's why I say don't meet your heroes. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> There's something to it, man. There really is. >> But it's just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. >> There's a thing that that hits you and lights you up where you want to do more. You want to be better. you want to whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do do, you become more whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah. It lights you up and it it's the fuel that we all live off of that consumes that like we consume to make our culture move forward. >> Yeah. >> There's like a sacrificial element to it, the people that do it and we all feed off of it, you know, and it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it, you know? >> Right. Right. But in great film, I mean, how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films? Like when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out and I >> I saw it and immediately ran around the block. I've never won in my life. [laughter] Like I was eating raw eggs. I was like I'm like this is going to change my life. Like it it there's things that happen when you see something truly great that it makes you want to be better as a human being. I remember where I was when I saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the movie, watched that movie and I remember leaving I was 19 or thinking I want to be a better man. >> I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen >> this actor do and this per and the way, you know, that was the only real conscious thought I had. But I remember having it and and kind of being surprised by it, you know, and it does it it it that [ __ ] can, you know, it's really touched me, you know, a lot of [ __ ] people's work and and that's why you get that like, >> you know, you you you see people you want to let them know, you know what I mean? And tell them and um I I always think people come to go, "Hey, I love that movie." I always feel like, "Ah, you don't have to say that." You know what I mean? Right. uh it makes me kind of uncomfortable and I I don't ever like put myself in with those figures who I think are like no but there's these these towering giants who have done this you know I don't know it's uh it's not it's it's it's I finally kind of arrived to a place where I was like it's always uncomfortable oh I saw hunting it made me want to go out to Hollywood write a script and I think oh [ __ ] I [laughter] go you know what I mean like man a certain point I fig Okay, you know what? Whatever it is, like great. That's that's >> the cost of your fame, you know, that you have to there's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you and then want to say those things to you and like the wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those things. >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter] >> Which is is so counterintuitive. You think like once you become really successful and you make a bunch of great things, it's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you like, "No, no, no. I'm doing something else right now. And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your [ __ ] [laughter] life. >> And also, I can't be satisfied or take any [ __ ] joy in that cuz I I don't think I'm good enough. I need to [ __ ] You know what I mean? >> Right. Never satisfied. Yeah. You can't. And that's the the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied. >> You see it in a lot of the fighters, the same kind of thing. The great great fighter. >> Well, also fighters have a very small window of greatness. There's there's only like a certain amount of years we can burn the RPMs at at the red line and then eventually the knees go, the back goes, you start. >> Is it earlier than other sports? It must be. Yeah. >> Yes, I think so because like Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now. I bet he You know what? How old is Tom now? 49. >> Probably 47 or eight now probably. >> I bet he could still play, you know. >> Yeah. I mean, but that's a Yeah, I mean that's a very specific skill position and the way he played it he you know. >> Right. But running back No. Right. But at cornerback, >> the elite levels of MMA, especially with USADA testing and, you know, and now uh drug-free sport testing when they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone, all these different things like you have nine years. You have nine years at peak performance. That's legitimate. Like, >> how long's Jon Jones been going? >> Jon Jones is a freak of all freaks cuz Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he was on Coke. That was one of the funny things he said in the uh in the press conference for the rematch. Daniel was talking [ __ ] He goes, "I beat you when I was on Coke." [laughter] >> I mean, he was getting arrested. He was partying for when he fought uh Gustiffson. He beat Gustoson and he didn't train at all. I talked to his trainer. He's like, "He didn't even show up at the gym. He was [ __ ] never there. He was never training. He could just show up and beat everybody's ass." I saw a thing uh on my Instagram feed of a fighter and I I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight and he goes, "I had the chance to spar with Jon Jones to to work with Jon Jones." And he goes, "I you know, I I knew about it months ahead of time." He goes, "I got every my nutrition, everything was absolutely flawless. I got, you know, my sleep, everything was on." He goes, "I show up at the gym that morning." He goes, >> it's me and five other guys. He goes, he comes in, I think he went to sleep at 4 in the morning or something. out and he goes he ran through all six. >> That's my buddy Brennan Shaw. >> Is that who it was? Okay. Yeah. [laughter] It was the funniest story. And he goes and then I just knew, you know, like that's that's a level like but imagine being that elite >> and and realizing there's another level. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight and John wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. >> It was a lower weight class and he just beat everybody's ass. And he said this is his warm-up. >> [laughter] >> He's just kidding. They just [ __ ] everybody up. I mean, he has a unique aptitude for MMA, but also he had two brothers that were super athletes. Yeah. Played for the Patriots and Arthur. >> And so, these guys are super athletes. And so, they're beating the [ __ ] out of each other all the time. So, they're like constantly in competition with elite athletes from the time he was a child. Yeah. >> So, he was just so tuned into competition and he he so intelligent like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's and he would study tape meticulously. >> Well, that that that spinning kick that he did to that where he where he said he >> and I think he thanked his taekwond do coach and he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides. >> Yeah. because of something he saw in the tape. And he and he got it off and hit this guy so hard, not even on not even on his liver side. He hit him on the other side and you see it shutter through his entire like organ structure. >> Yeah. He his heel was deep into his body cavity like all the way up to his [ __ ] gnarly like and but he had but he he he just practice this one specific >> and he was like and he even said he goes it is a devastating shot like there's not a human being who could take that. >> No, it's like getting hit by a car. >> Yeah, >> because when you >> But getting hit by a car in one spot the size of a foot, the size of a 13 foot. >> Oh yeah, here it is. Watch this. >> He sets him up. Boom. It's just >> it's like, yeah, no, it's over. It's over. It's over. >> And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided to become a two division champion. I mean, John was a freak. >> You see it rumbling through. >> And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing cuz he caught him with a bent leg like he wasn't even fully extended, which you know >> was even more devast. But John realized that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight. And so he said, "The most powerful kick is a spinning back kick. So I'm just going to work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot." >> Wow. Okay. >> That's just >> It's not just the physicals of He's also like a genius. >> He's a genius. >> Well, he's also like he's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study. He will not take a short notice fight. Even a guy that he could [ __ ] beat any day of the week. You can wake him up at 3:00 in the morning. He could [ __ ] that guy up. we will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight. >> Well, it's just, you know, greatness. But John's troubled. You know, John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy [ __ ] and he's, you know, he's a wild fella. And, you know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure, has cost him a lot of [ __ ] in his personal life. Yeah, [snorts] >> but you know when he knocks Deepay out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world like [laughter] >> for that moment he's on top of the world you know but then again it's like the same thing you're as soon as you get back like what's next >> you know there's there's another challenge doesn't matter how many how many people love you now like it's not good enough there's someone else looming you got to beat this guy >> that seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the like complete compulsion to have to get to the next level and the next level keeps [ __ ] moving the goalpost. You >> I'll never forget um I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost the welterweight title to BJ Penn and I'm interviewing him inside the octagon. He said I'm going to be honest with you is actually a relief. And he goes, "The pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so in the whole world chasing you." He goes, "I'm going to be I thought it was an incredibly >> brave moment for a guy to say that who is, you know, just this [ __ ] amazing human being, this warrior to say, I just got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing my title feels like a relief." >> And [snorts] I was like, "Wow." Like that that is so so brave to be that honest in front of the because everybody's like you just got your ass kicked. It's like I'm this is a relief. >> You know, it took a burden off my back. I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But I I needed that. I needed to just >> step off the [ __ ] top of the hill for a little while. Jesus Christ. >> You got to be like a great actually relief to be able to say something like that. It's kind of a gift instead of feeling like you got to hide or pretend it and go, "Yeah, I'm hiding from my leaves. [ __ ] It was a lot to carry and now I you know." Well, the thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed. You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these these round what they take like >> try if I was here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Smoke up. They're taking like, you know, five guys and they're rotating them in with you. So, you're doing five rounds with fresh guys. So you got one guy who's [ __ ] warmed up, getting, you know, getting ready for you and then you're [ __ ] out of breath and they give you a 30 second break instead of a minute and then they're throwing in these monsters and, you know, you're exposed. You're you're getting beat in training. You're getting smothered in training. You're you're exhausted. You know, you're always reaching your limits cuz the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them. You got to hit them and then they got to figure out where that limit is and okay, next week we're going to do one extra round. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. we got to do more strength and conditioning. We're going to push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So, you're always breaking. You're always you're always at the point where you can do no more because it's the only way to and you can only maintain that like the condition that they get in when they step into the octagon. It's not possible to maintain that. No, right. You can only get >> you have to aim at that one moment and yeah, you have to peak and then if you [ __ ] up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do just because they're such savages, they never want to leave the gym. Then they don't peak right and then they come in and they're exhausted and they didn't recover properly and then in between rounds they're too tired and they can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up. That happens too. >> I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain. >> Oh god. you're in an actual championship >> and you realized you're there's no you can't bounce back and this guy is [ __ ] blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches and you can't get out of the way anymore. >> Do you think who who was it? Was it Khabib who said that they they should just do 25 minute just >> Oh, a lot of people said that I mean that's a what songs are playing. What's going on [ __ ] technology? >> The Tesy brothers playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. >> Um, sorry about that. Uh, >> well, Hoist Gracie always said that. Like that was how he fought in the early days. >> They just straight 25 minutes >> because he was like, "Look," he goes, "Uh, if we're on the ground," he goes, "I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds." And he goes, "I need time to cook them." That's what he would say. Yeah. Yeah. It was I mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is all about. Jiu-Jitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted and you know and then they eventually finish you >> like a like a just >> throw a constrict. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the real that's but you know there's this balance of like making it interesting for this for people to watch. I I've been a proponent of no standups. Don't ever stand anybody up when a guy takes you down. Like you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it. So you should never get stood up in a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing. If he's holding you down and you can't get up, that's how it should be. So it's more realistic. But it's the balance of it being a sport. People want to watch. >> Yeah. Making it because people get when people grab someone to take him to the ground, nothing happen. People go, you hear the audience and then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up and I'm always like, "Ah, don't stand them up." It's >> I never thought of it that way that the beginning of the round starts it to the advantage of the >> always always you're you're in a position you didn't earn you never got back up. You know I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round because it's one fight. It's not five fights. So if you start it standing up and at the beginning of each round that's a new fight. >> Yeah. Right. >> In a way when you're pitching like how quickly would the UFC go out of business if >> real quick 30 seconds they're on the ground and then it's 24 and a half minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible businessman. [laughter] I I would give the fighters more money. Like they would I would [ __ ] up the whole business model. I would uh I would get rid of the cage. I would have them all fight in a basketball court. Just put mats on the ground in the basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage. I think the cage gets in the way. It becomes a way to get back up because you press your back up against the cage. You can use it to stand back up again and you're in the middle of the center of a mat. It's very difficult to get back up. And that's realistic, >> right? you know, you're using a foreign object to help you perform. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, >> you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage and it's like they lock you in there [laughter] match. >> Yeah. It's just uh but I mean in terms of like inspirational performances and things that you when you see like the human spirit elevated to the the the highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three [ __ ] months and then you know the referee's like are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go. And it's like that moment like is it's not not like anything else in all sports. I think that's the moment that like people show up for cuz they build the intensity. It's the same with like the old Tyson fights or whatever like now it's going to happen and there there you can't help but have that feeling once it you know and yeah some fights end up being disappointing whatever but there that moment is always there. >> Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness because like you could dedicate your whole life. You could [ __ ] get up in the morning at the right time. You could eat all the right foods. you could do all the right training, but then you see that [ __ ] guy like smoke [laughter] 13 seconds. >> There's nothing I can do. I have no chance. You know, by looking at he had the just a look in his eye and you it was one of the only fighters where you just see the other guy was scared. >> Usually they at least hold himself together where they come off like, "Oh, I don't know. This guy looks pretty tough." Guys would fight Tyson and just would start and they'd feel that moment too. Oh [ __ ] they're letting this tiger out and here he comes. And it was like, >> well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime and those fights were like executions. You didn't want to pay for the pay-per-view because they were so I I swear I mean I mean Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife and she was crying [laughter] >> and this is when they're coming to the center of the ring and she But by the way, for good reason. Like this man might kill my husband, right? >> You know what I mean? like >> he's certainly going to beat the [ __ ] out of him and she knows it and the world knows it and >> guys were ready to quit. Remember that dude Hurricane or whatever white kid who fought him when >> his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in. He had it ready like you know he was ready to go. All right, that's it. That's good. >> The bell rings he picks up the towel. >> Yeah, [laughter] you got save your guy's life. You know what I mean? >> McNeel is [ __ ] up now, too. When you hear him talk, it's rough. It's rough to hear. Really? Yeah. I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the dark side of the sport of of MMA and of fighting. You know, you you talk like I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious 16 times. >> Jesus Christ. >> Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] man." And he seems normal. Like, he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now, when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words and they're still fighting. >> Their words all mumble together. Like, you have no idea how much they're struggling. >> Like, and they'll they're going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life. It's not going to get better. It's going to get way worse cuz the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after the the injuries. That's when it really sets up. >> Really starts like just keeps >> keep getting worse. I mean, there's some therapies that they can do now. There's uh like they they do and Knoxville did some of it like this magnetic therapy that they do that reimulates neuron growth and and oddly enough mushrooms like psilocybin has been shown to all of a sudden cure a whole bunch of [ __ ] >> I know. Well, probably always has, you know, >> all of a sudden they acknowledging it. Yeah. >> Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers >> because it's always been kind of like a leftwing wing thing to be into psychedelics, but all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs blowing up and IEDs and concussions and the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics. So, it's kind of like in Texas, uh, former Governor Rick Perry has started the Ibeane initiative. So, they're using Ibeane to help all these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Musky was on when he was running for president. Oh, really? Yeah. [laughter] Remember when he sank Ed Musky's? It's if >> What is I gain? I >> It's from the Aboga tree. And it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational. It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you. You see where all your problems come from. You see where all of your emotional hitches are. Yeah. And with addictions, it has an 80% 80 I think it's 84% with one treatment, they quit whatever they're hooked on. Not only that, it rewires the brain. So the physical pathways to addiction, like someone addict to opiates, gone, completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore. So with one treatment, 80 plus% of people >> That's incredible. >> With two treatments, it's in the '9s. >> That's amazing. >> It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you know, since like 1970 in this country. The sweeping psychedelics has like a clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry um because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worked with a lot of veterans that you know and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man, he realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff. And so he started getting behind this ibeane initiative. They passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and they're going to do it with police officers. And I mean police officers experience more PTSD. Like I I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin and he said and he was also in the military and he said what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer. Really? He goes, "I was seeing death and violence on a on a daily basis." He goes, "When you're deployed," he goes, "Yeah, you're you're going to see some horrible [ __ ] but you're going to see some horrible [ __ ] mixed in, you know, over a course of time where, you know, you go out and things go live." goes like every day. >> Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life. >> And every day you're pulling someone over and they might shoot you. Like you have no idea. You're you're pulling up to uh tinted windows. You don't know what the [ __ ] is going on. You're running the plate. The the license is expired. You have no idea who's who's in the car. You don't you don't know anything. And you've seen all the videos. We've all seen videos of cops getting shot down like when they're pulling over a car. We've all seen it. And so these guys are living with this [ __ ] PTSD all the time. And then they have to live in real life. They they're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor. And their [ __ ] head is just a hurricane of chaos. >> And I gain has been very beneficial for those people to just just sort of come down and and try to find the root of all this stuff and and get them off pills and and get them on the straight. >> That's great. >> Wow. >> Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Oh, I because uh during the Trump during the presidential elections, he he started spreading these rumors and it's in the the documentary uh I what is it that documentary? Is it Fear and Loathing? >> Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it. So, he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavitt and he goes [laughter] he goes, "Yeah." He goes, "There was a a rumor running around that uh Ed Musky was on Ibagain and I I knew about it because uh I started that rumor. [laughter] But he made I sold it to him. >> So the guy completely cracked. So like this guy was like a frontr runner for the president and he [ __ ] completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs cuz H Conter Thompson was just running around like saying there's these Brazilian witch doctors who are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy [ __ ] >> That's [laughter] great. >> They were like and Hunter would know. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose Ibgainane, too, because Ibgainane is like it's not a recreational drug and it's not a drug of addiction. It's a literally a drug that stops addiction. >> But that he was the guy that would have the full c the whole book's full of these [ __ ] esoteric drugs you never heard of that you mentioned really casual way like four of us stopped to get ibeine at the one gas station that sold between [laughter] needles and nothing. >> Yeah, sure. No, of course you did. >> But it it does help people that have uh brain damage as well. It's it's supposed to like cause some sort of neuro >> regeneration. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's stuff out there that can help people, but uh a large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering and we don't ever hear about it. >> They say like it's supposed to be that it's that like the argument is is because it's you know they're not using a glove like that football supposed to be wor I mean wasn't that the sort of rationale that like you were going to have less impact in boxing because the the boxing gloves? No, but it's remember it's all it's like the subconcussive blows. It's like the it's not necessarily the the the one shot knocking you out as much as the repeated >> kind of like small like little bit of brain bleed. >> I'm sure it's like they're all bad for you. You know what I mean? Like a version of >> knocks to the head are not a thing to be avoided. Yeah. >> Well, it's also what you take in training, too. We're only considering what happens during a fight. If a guy has 40 50 MMA fights, that's 40. >> How many rounds does he have right in the gym? Yeah. Oh, training camp is [ __ ] brutal. And depending upon how intelligent your camp is. Like some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other hard and then maybe one day of the week they go live, but you do it with trusted, you know, they're they're very close to you. These are people that you care about and love, so they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose. >> But sometimes not. Like sometimes you're in a hostile gym and you know, you got to spar with people you don't even know. They're from other countries. You have a big name. They're trying to take you out. you know, it's um but the the amount of damage these guys take. I mean, I don't know if football's better or worse. They're all But the thing about football is the big impacts are way worse because when you've got a 300B super athlete that's [ __ ] full tilt all the way from across >> boom running start. >> Yeah. you're getting hit by a truck >> and that but that doesn't it's it's not targeted necessarily at your head. So it's like what what is better and what is worse. You know, boxing's bad. You know, it's like >> you have less options. MMA is slightly better because if especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground, but it's ultimately >> you're paying a price make a [ __ ] living for sure. But for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the [ __ ] 16,000 people are on their feet screaming, there's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it. And those guys chase that high for their entire life and then after it's over, they, you know, they feel oddly detached, >> right? >> And nothing ever rises to that level again, >> right? You can make films until you're a hundred years old. You know, you can make great films forever. You can do the thing that you love forever. They have a little window, a little window of greatness. really tough thing about being an athlete like I >> we were talking to Pete Sampress that time we met Sam years ago and he was like we were probably I don't know how we were 30 he was 32 or something like that >> and he was kind of we were like oh my god you know he had all these [ __ ] you know wins and grand slams and he he had a kind of vaguely like yeah he was like hey you guys look I I'm about to retire it's I'm finished and we're you know young guys were you know >> just getting started you know what I mean like we're also the thing is you get better >> at your job the more you do it Yeah. You know, so it's that thing with the athlete. I was having this conversation the other day. It's like you have all the physical skills at the beginning, but you become a better, you know, better at your sport. >> Yeah. >> You know, as your skills are declining and >> the body just doesn't want to do it anymore. >> And you've got to just comp become Greg Maddox, you know, and compensate with all the tricks and location and but like and that's why that drama of like the aging athlete is so powerful. still have it. It's like all do we still have it in me? Can I still do it? How long, you know, is what I've learned enough to compensate for what I've lost? You know, >> well, there's an interesting story about Vtor Belelffort. So, Vtor Belelffort was he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old. That was like the first event I ever worked at, 1997. I mean, he was like one of the all-time greats for sure. But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy and boy did he [ __ ] use it. Okay, [laughter] I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels. And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy and people refer to it as the TRT Vtor years because he was [ __ ] terrifying because he has the mind of a veteran. Incredible amount of experience. But now his body is moving like a 25-year-old. And so he was just annihilating people just lighting people on fire. >> So they're not allowed to use testosterone or >> No, they can't use anything. >> Um, >> no. >> No. How about peptides? Can they use peptides? Nope. Nope. Not even peptides. They're trying to take that and and reform that. But there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do. I mean, all it's allowing you to do soft tissue injuries, heal quicker, and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones. So, instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally, and it'll it just makes you more healthy. for a very unhealthy job and where you're, you know, you're getting hurt all the time. It's it's going to be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it. And it's also there's no long-term damage that's going to do like steroids where it shuts down your endocrine system. >> So, I hope they reform it. But the idea was that there's so many [ __ ] loopholes and so many people cheat. Big camps used to hire scientists. So they had a scientist on staff that was not only >> he do. >> Yeah. Exactly. Not only procuring stuff that that would slip by the test because there's like you know the Balco stuff with Barry Bond clear >> there. There's there's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through and there's a lot of experts that have like one of the things is animal derived testosterone. So testosterone one of the they do they use a carbon isotope test. I think I believe that's how they use to figure out where the testosterone came from. So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios. They go, "Well, no, it all seems likely. He's just he's an outlier. He just has naturally high testosterone." But testosterone that you get from like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam, >> believe it or not. Yes. Yeah. It's not It's not animal derived testosterone. So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine >> they can determine that it's a yam based testosterone >> it's exogenous not indogenous >> yam they're fighting it's not heavy [laughter] >> but if they could figure out a way to ex and there's a lot of proof of concept of this can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources >> bold testosterone >> something like that well toine that's they used to inject Hitler with torine >> you know Hitler was like a [ __ ] guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of [ __ ] on him and one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff. They try to keep him viral. Yeah. But but there probably are athletes right now that are using some [ __ ] that they haven't figured out yet. So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, "No, no, [ __ ] no loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. I vitamins and >> Right." But the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and and and mask steroids by overflooding the body with liquids. So if you overflow so then when you >> So the ratio is high because like you add more water it's you would just fill them up with saline and then when they go to piss like nope clean look at the ratio it's >> cuz it's like so much water is being processed through the body that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask it especially with like things that you would add to the IV. Um, so there's no you can't do it's only food and approved supplements through like really high level labs like Thor, like Thorn supplements where it's third party tested. >> So they don't they can't do anything. But for a while they let him do it and uh those TRT VOR days are my favorite fights to watch. [laughter] >> Did they stop doing fighting because they thought it was like advantaging certain people or they [ __ ] happened that they're like this is [ __ ] up or was >> Well, they look look at the difference. That's TRT Vtor on the left and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it. >> Look at the difference. >> Jesus. >> I mean, that's [ __ ] stunning. On the left though, dude, that [ __ ] was terrifying. When Luke Rockol fought him, he told me, he goes, "Dude, when I stood next to him at the [ __ ] weigh-ins, he had muscles on his teeth." >> He goes, "This [ __ ] dude was so jacked. He was so scared." I was like, "What the [ __ ] is he on?" >> He goes, "He knew he was on something." It's just It's cheating. It really is because you can jack your levels way above a normal human beings because that's what a lot of guys there was a few fighters that were pulled from cards because like say if a really high levels like 1100 they were testing like 18900 they were like people that have never lived before >> they were like a science project. >> They had different species >> and they were most insane confidence cuz they were essentially like a raging gorilla. They were just insanely confident and just it's just so fired up like they couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just [ __ ] maniacal. They're a berserker, you know? So you it's not a person anymore. Now now you're a science project. It's not, you know, there are rare outliers who like Tyson when he was in his prime. It's rare physical specimens and like that's part of the game, but that's God, you know, that's nature. This is not, you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't allow him to do anything anymore. And that's why it's cuz too many and VTOR was one of the guys that tested like way over the line and then they just decided >> like but that's what they're going to do. If you say >> if you say it's legal, they're just going to take as much as good more is better. And you know >> Yeah. If you say you did one cc a week, they're like I heard five. I heard five cc's. And these guys are just training five times a day and they never get tired and they recover like that. So and they they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries cuz they they heal like you're a [ __ ] six-year-old, you know? And you just your body just like [laughter] [ __ ] Wolverine. >> Oh yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about peptides, too. The Wolverine stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if you ever get injured. If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP157 and TB500. >> I didn't hear about TB500, which what's that one? >> Thyin Beta 500. It's in conjunction with BPC 157. It is a [ __ ] phenomenal stack and just really helps injuries. >> I didn't know they called it the Wolverine stack. >> That's what they call it, the Wolverine stack. Yeah, cuz you [ __ ] heal incredibly well. Like you like it quickly. I was talking to a pro football player pulled his hamstring. He's like, "Dude, I I shot that [ __ ] right into my hamstring for two weeks and I was right back on the field." I was like, "That's nuts." >> I go, "What is a normal rehab?" He goes, "Three months." >> He goes, "In two weeks I was back on the field." I go, "What the f?" He goes, "I don't know how bad the injury was." He goes, "But to me it's like [ __ ] I pulled my hamstring. I'm [ __ ] now for x amount of days." He goes, "In two weeks later, I was playing full tilt." >> Wow. >> I'm like, that's nuts. and going right into the area of the injury. >> Right into it. Some people think you don't have to do that. They think it's, you know, systemic. So, you just like stick it in your fat on your on your side. But he's like, "No." And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local. Shoot it locally into the area and it just has >> like uh cortisone or whatever. Where is it? What is the >> cortisone? But cortisone just mass >> numbs it or whatever. Yeah. >> Not only that, it it has a tendency if you do it too many times to weaken tendons. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so it could actually exacerbate the problem because it takes away the pain. >> Measure, right? >> Yeah. It takes away the pain. But >> I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year where they're like, >> I know my my friend had that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should just do the the the the drug Olympics for cash. He goes, "Do it in Vegas for cash." And then then the enhanced games came. I sent him a tell. I was like, "They're doing it." [snorts] >> The game >> and it's just like >> I'm down. I love Let's see what a human being can do. >> I That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs, it was one of the most exciting times in baseball. They didn't do anything. They knew it wasn't a [ __ ] mystery to anybody. But Avery's tuning in. The Bash Brothers baseball on a strike, you know? They almost [ __ ] destroyed that league and then people started watching home runs and everyone and then Bonds is like, "Well, >> these two [ __ ] guys are hitting this many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball." Which he was. And when he did it, it was lights out. Yeah. You know, I mean, he had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times. 162 games, three [laughter] and a half bats a game. Only swung and missed 20. I mean, that's just, >> you know, and yeah, Magguire get like just like move his wrist to get the ball out of the park and it was like, yeah, it was fun to watch. And when people say like steroids don't make you a better athlete, well, they don't maybe don't make you a better athlete, [laughter] >> but if you're a [ __ ] Barry, if >> you're already an elite athlete, yeah, it makes Let Jon Jones do all the juice he wants. He'd be fighting until he's 50 and [ __ ] people up. And you say, "John, we we've we really come to our senses. Like, this sport's all about excitement. Want to give the people what they want. Give people let people make informed choices based on their own discretion." >> Oh, it's like, >> "Welcome back. Welcome [laughter] back." Then all a sudden, John looks like Vtor in that picture. >> He'd be undefeated. >> By the way, John beat Vtor when Vtor was in his prime. And Vtor caught Jon in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyperextended, popped it, went backwards. You can see the video of it. His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't tap and then beat him in the next round >> with one arm. >> Yep. One arm. [ __ ] His arm was [ __ ] for like a year after that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Give that man some steroids. Let's [laughter] see what he can do. >> Steroids. Let him be the king of the world. >> Yeah. The dream team. It's like remember the first time the the the pros went to the Olympics, whatever the years, won every game by 70 points. You know, it wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. >> Well, the argument for that made sense though because like these other people are being compensated in their countries. >> Oh yeah, I had no problem. And then by the way, now it's got more that last Olympic championship was that was a great game against France. That was fabulous. You know, I mean, yeah, they they're they're going to wreck some smaller countries and stuff, but >> okay, that you're playing pros, they're playing pros. the whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like you know >> yes it's it's it's people find like a convenient definition of it according to what's there like you see in college sports is changing and stuff like look I got no problem if you're going to apply the rules evenly but sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse to like for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV deal like no no you guys you're getting you're getting education >> it's like a little bit like yeah education you guys making a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play >> it's exploitation >> yeah and I'm glad they've changed that with college sports because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats and they they deserve that money >> and not every one of them is going to be in the NFL, right? >> You know what I mean? Some of them that's their window to make that [ __ ] money. You know what I mean? Like it's hard in the NFL. >> And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there >> is constant constant. Yeah. >> And and and the the the metrics for it's like what is it a two two and a half year career or something >> depending on your position. But I mean it's it's such a >> that seems just fair and obvious. So you pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college, but not to like, you know, come on. >> Well, that's the great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body like acting. >> You can you can kind of do it forever, you know? >> Yeah. Keep going till you lose it, you know what I mean? It's really Yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive aspect and it's a lot, you know, but >> like, okay, great. If it's if you will bet on yourself and then the expectation is, well, I got to do something that's interesting enough that people want to watch it. Well, that's the proposition anyway. How do you guys decide like on projects that you you choose? Like I'm sure you have so many options now. Like what what makes you say this is what I'm going to spend the next six months doing? >> It's really I mean there are a bunch of different factors like like the director is being the most important one. But but if you read a script and and like we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that that if if we read something and it and it it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you know, you get that get that kind of emotional something happens when you read it. you go, "Okay, well," then you then you pay attention to it, maybe read it again, go, "Wait a minute." You know, if it if it if it moves you in that in that way, then, you know, ultimately the big decision is saying yes because >> because you're going to spend >> Yeah. the last point over which you have >> total control, right? >> You know, and then you're in. >> Then you're in and and you're and you're in whether it's good or bad. I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew a month into a six-month shoot that like this is not going to work. [laughter] And that that is that is the [ __ ] >> it's just the worst. >> It is I I I came to think of that. It happened to me. >> They're going to shoot us all when it comes out. >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter] >> It's like it's all bad. >> Go to work. You know, >> it's like it's it's going to be it's going to be 80 16 hour days in a row and then uh a a post-production period that's going to be pretty fraught and then it's going to come out and we're going to get [ __ ] crushed >> and then you're going to have to sell it. You're going to have to walk the [ __ ] plank and sit down with access. >> You know what I mean? like so saw the movie. How important is that stuff still today? Like the press stuff, is that still important? >> It is. I don't know to what degree each specific thing is. I mean, >> it's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today and we were saying I was like doing this show more meaningful in than the rest of the [ __ ] we do in aggregate to promote this movie. Like we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the the quick ones with all the outlet, >> five minute interviews, all the the the evening shows, the day shows, >> all that stuff and and this just given how many people listen to the show will be more meaningful. We think I mean that's our we were speculating but >> his historically right if you look at it that's it because they've changed to like all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick and you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing it looks great and you and nobody cares like they're looking to go either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is trusted and a trusted person is in like your like you say your feed right and it's your friend or your your cousin or or they affix that to somebody which has become a more rare thing like who's a like a legitimate neutral arbiter, right? Who I can't predict what they're going to say before I go there. There are few of those fewer and fewer of those people in the world even those are proliferation of more and more voices and I it's kind of paradoxical like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So you're like a 7-second, you know, we had an advertising company. We we do most of the spots that we release like 15-second spots, six-second spots for social, the ones most people see. And then there's this one form, which is like long form discussions that are whatever two hours long. And the amazing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention for more than, you know, a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form and that's why you see these are getting more popular. obviously have this massive audience and it's and it it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend and I think and I don't know that it probably has something to do with like who do I think is authentic and am I actually going to willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through and and that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth. They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of give that sort of voice to in their life. >> It's also the voice of the public, too, because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people just start like saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that, it just takes off organically now. >> Yeah. And that has more more weight than anything. If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, "Hey, this is great. You should see I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody tell me like, you know, who I respect, hey, you got to see that thing, that means more to me than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if the closer you can get to that, which is why that I think the act of a like telling the same, you know, like telling the same like story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain like limited reach, it's just it's just not that efficient. But you have to because it's like well we sat down with our own Trisha Zanaka and talked about the mo you know and you kind of do that ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that in that market. But I think ultimately it's it's like more and more people see realize they're being sold to see through the [ __ ] act and the sort of [ __ ] of it. They recognize that you know you go out and sell every movie. You know what I mean? The good and the bad. And then we got to decide well which one and and who can you count on? Well, it's mostly going to be that like the word of mouth, your friend, and and now you can see that person in your media experience, you know. >> Yeah. And I think it's also we know that when you're sitting down with extra or these like that's just their job to sit down with people, they're not doing it because they want to, right? >> You know, it's like they got told go talk to that person. >> And we got told go talk to them. So, we go do the ritual and they say the thing they say and we say the thing we say >> and everyone goes home and says we did our job. >> That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like like with me I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to. It's just like I [clears throat] I I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go oh yeah that sounds cool and that's it. >> But like that I think means a lot at least this person is making this choice and I've listened to it a bunch and I I actually find myself agreeing with it a lot of the time. I'm so hard right I'll give it a shot that you know it's exactly >> I think also like this format like at least I know why it why I started listening to podcasts was because uh in in the world like the the divisive kind the way everybody was talking these sound bites and all this [ __ ] and and and it was just like the ability to just listen to human beings talk often who who had different points of view but like had a civil conversation >> Yeah. was like was such a welcome thing, you know, given the given the kind of the hysterical kind of, you know, uh, frenzy of of of of divisiveness that's kind of it just feels it's just like, >> you know, the it's like I if I open my phone and look at the news, I like [ __ ] >> It's like, put it down. It's just it's it's like uh I feel my cortisol level go up. and to actually hear people be listen to people I know I don't agree with but listen to them and just and just think about it. You know what I mean? I mean approach life with a little bit of humility. >> Not hold on to what you believe obviously but but but keep listening. >> It's also there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people. So people are kind of starving for that. >> I know. Isn't it funny that this has become the shared cultural like we listen to that podcast and then actually experience that because and also people why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that because they compress it and because the truth it's money because actually doing that is not with money. it's just ratings and the perceived idea that like well if you simplify it or you you position it one way or that you engender outrage um that's simple or just you know pure one-sided ideas that are that are simple um you know but the news used to be the idea was look here's the FCC we're going to let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it but here's the deal you got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively then it started to be no you got to make money for for that hour too. And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than tell the truth or reports or any of those things. And people try to hybridize them, but at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more and then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data, you know, grand what are people watching, what kinds of stories and and I I think this is simple answers because you're just you're making it into a profit game. those incentives are not aligned with >> just trying to get down to like even reporting basic facts. >> Yeah. It's a weird time. It's like we have more access to information than ever before, but so much of it is just horseshit. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's it's hard to stay balanced. Yeah. >> And I think that's why it's good to like listen to people just talk >> and and then you recognize like the flaws in their thinking. You feel ego. You feel deception. [ __ ] You know, >> it's true. people will reveal themselves. Like you actually we actually don't need that many editorialists to be constantly telling us what to think and how to think. People actually have pretty good instincts. You know, if someone's bullshitting you eventually, they'll kind of hang themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe. Uh after a while, he kind of started repeating his sticktick and I kind of he didn't really talk about what I was wondering about. And you form your own that's like forming your own judgment. >> Pete Buddhajed actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts. He's like, "Because you you go on there and you have your points, but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours." Like, you can only stick to these lines. >> Yeah. You get talking points and [ __ ] for and then >> and then what happens is people just like there was an art to like look at how great the communicator they stick to the message and they do their points. We Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any longer than that, it just starts to look like a [ __ ] robot on, you know, and like I said, what we need to follow through with, you know, I saw you do the same hand gesture and the same bit with that, but you know, >> sometimes you find out they're full of [ __ ] just by having them talk about other things. >> You know, like tell me, do you like cooking? You know, like just like and then you just see like some concocted >> they're thinking what makes me look good if about cooking that I should >> Well, I tell you what, because Americans [laughter] exactly it like >> do I cook or do I not? What what would I >> Does that make me feminine or does it make me open to cultural? You It's just like, >> yeah, >> what do you like to cook, man? I don't cook. You know, >> well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions that they don't have enough time to formulate their own. >> They're just so concerned with how people are going to perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed. You're like terrified to misspeak. >> Right. Right. >> I think that in general is a real [ __ ] danger. I mean, you we were talking the other day, we were saying about like one of the ver benefits of getting older and and doing this for a long time is >> you realize like nobody really gives a [ __ ] as much about you as you thought. You know, you just kind of nobody gives a [ __ ] Nobody remembers. You >> spend your 20s and 30s thinking like this is really important and then you realize no one [ __ ] come [laughter] off and what's going to be no one actually cares. It's not that big a deal. Nobody >> most people are mostly worrying about themselves in their life and they Yeah. There's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention or it's in some story or it's like you're [ __ ] staring at it because it's about you, right? You know, you know that you said that about me. Nobody else really [ __ ] >> Nobody cares. >> And if they do, they're usually [ __ ] up. Like something's wrong. Why concentrate on this other person's life? >> You're probably trying to ignore your own [ __ ] right? >> Yeah. >> Well, listen, man. Your movie is [ __ ] awesome. Uh I've loved so much of your your films over the years, so it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this. It's been great. >> Thanks for having us. >> Two very normal, nice movie stars. [laughter] >> You guys are cool as [ __ ] >> Give us a couple more hours. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the rip. It's [ __ ] great. And uh everybody go see it. It's great. I loved it. Thank you. Thanks for being here. All right. Pleasure. >> Bye, everybody. [music]