Raw Transcript: “This UFO Shut Down 10 Nukes!” - Air Force Officer Robert Salas

He's frightened. He's really frightened. He's screaming into the phone. They said, "Sir, we got all the guards out. They've got their weapons pointed at this red orange uh pulsating light. It's huge." I went over to talk to my commander because now I'm thinking there's something serious going on out there. Before [music] I could tell him about the phone calls, we get a big horn go off. One of the missiles went off alert status or went from green to red. No go. Can't launch it. And right after that one went down, all of them went down one at a time. >> I'd already been trying to get in touch with you and interview you. And then this kind of ridiculous Wall Street Journal piece comes out by this guy named Joel Shectman. It just seems like a really botched kind of attempt at discrediting you entirely. Why would they come after me? Well, nuclear deterrence is the backbone of our national security. >> A short time ago, the US military carried out massive precision strikes. >> You have Xi and Putin closer than they've ever been. Iran and Israel is really a proxy war for this larger global conflict. You have Pakistan having nukes. Think about the amount of al-Qaeda still in northern Pakistan. That could be a failed state at any moment. I am gravely concerned [music] about the situation in Pakistan. >> If there was ever an explicit disclosure [music] moment, it might occur around us being on the brink. If you have another kind of Cuban missile crisis [music] >> between September of ' 66 and March of ' 67, we lost 30 missiles to UFO [music] activity. 30. >> 30. Our next guest was a witness of one of the most spectacular UFO nuclear related cases we've ever had. He was stationed at Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana. He was a missile launch officer there deep underground monitoring a group of 10-minute man missiles. In March of 1967, while on duty, he received a call from an extremely frightened topside guard reporting unidentified flying objects. Glowing red lights hovering above the base. You won't believe what happened next, but the UFO appeared to interact with the nuclear weapons. If this were an isolated incident, it would be one thing. It's not. It's a repeating pattern. UFOs show up constantly around nuclear weapons in civilian energy grids. The great journalist Robert Hastings has documented 167 Qcle cleared witnesses in his great book, UFOs and Nukes. The link between UFOs and nuclear weapons is ubiquitous and widespread. And our next guest's sighting at Malmstrom is one of four different sightings that I am aware of in and around this particular Montana base. This isn't an anomaly. It's a real scientific pattern for those earnestly engaging with the data. For the ones who won't just reflexively look away due to the stigma. Just last month, the Wall Street Journal wrote a hit piece attempting to discredit our next guest. They claimed that this whole event he witnessed was due to an experimental test of a non-uclear EMP. They cited an EMP model that wasn't even operational in 1967 and claimed that this device was used on our own nuclear weapons with officers like him present. The article made no sense and it really didn't even make an attempt to make any sense, but it was written by a journalist that says that conspiracies around JFK's death are now fueling a belief in the quote unquote deep state. This journalist also just wrote an article railing against a scop that marginalized Chinese co vaccines. Suffice it to say, I think we have very different worldviews. But as you'll see in this interview with my next guest, history might not repeat, but it certainly rhymes. In 1967, they also tried to cover this case up using some very bad faith tactics. Luckily for us, our next guest has documented the hypocrisy the entire way. And even though the Wall Street Journal wouldn't let this 85year-old veteran publish a full response to defend himself, he does so very eloquently here. So, without further ado, I'd like to welcome this week's American Alchemist, First Lieutenant Robert Salace. I'm here with Bob Salace. I'm so grateful to be here. I appreciate you having me. Um, I've been kind of citing your experience for the last two or three years on my show. And so, it's really cool to finally be in person and be able to to, you know, hear it directly from you. And this couldn't be more timely cuz I had already been trying to get in touch with you and interview you. And then this kind of ridiculous Wall Street Journal uh piece comes out by this guy named Joel Shectman. Clearly, you know, he's collaborating very closely, probably too closely with a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick, who's the former head of the all domain all domain anomaly resolution office. And it just seems like uh a really botched kind of attempt at uh discrediting you entirely and basically saying that there was an EMP that was wheeled up to Malmstrom Air Force Base where you were first lieutenant. You were working in the you know launch control facility and that is what explains these 10 nuclear missiles going down. So anyways, it's very timely and I'm very grateful to be having this conversation with you. >> I'm I'm happy to talk about this. Uh, yes. I think there was a deliberate attempt to discredit my story. Um, and I've got some theories as to why that was done. Yeah. >> What are your theories as to why or why don't we do this? Why don't we just get into the core details first of what happened and then, you know, Lot's going to be referencing that and then from there we can get into theories as to why people are trying to sabotage. Uh so in 1967 uh I was assigned to a twoman crew. Uh my commander was uh Fred Maywald. Uh we were both lieutenants at the time and we were assigned to Oscar Flight which is near Lewistown, Montana. No, I take that back. It's near Roy, Montana which is about 100 miles to the east of Great Falls and Melmstrom Air Force Base located near Great Falls. So at this uh site we we go underground to a what we call the launch control center and that's where we have all the equipment down there to uh monitor and launch missiles if necessary. Uh so on this particular evening March 24th 1967 um my commander uh was taking a rest break. We had a little cut down there. I was in charge of the entire facility. Um, I get a call sometime in the evening. I don't know when um exactly. I was probably close to 900 p.m. or so. It was dark out and the topside guard, which we call a flight security controller, called down and said, "Uh, sir, I've been seeing some strange lights in the sky uh overhead directly over us. Um, they're strange because uh they're flying very fast, stopping in midair, reversing course, doing 90° turns. Um, no engine noise. And sir, these are not airplanes. [sighs] Uh, airplanes can't do what this these lights are doing. So, um, I even said, "You mean like UFOs?" [laughter] Because we had actually had um newspaper accounts in the Great Falls Tribune uh of people and uh like farmers and citizens seeing strange lights in the sky at night. that week. >> Yeah. Wasn't there a there was a truck driver and a police officer, if I'm not mistaken, who had also >> Yeah, we we'll get to that. That's that's an important part of this. Um, we can talk about it now if you want. on the same night. Um, and this I think was about 7:30 to 8 in the evening, a truck driver was driving through the town of Belt, Montana, which was about [gasps] 35 miles to the southeast of uh, Great Falls. and uh he looks over out his his window and sees a bright light that's pacing him going the same speed and it's actually blinking at him and [laughter] he finds it a little strange. Um it was just a big white bulb light to him. He stops a truck and uh and gets out and watches the light um land in a ravine, a large ravine. Uh he goes over there and takes a look, sees it. Then u then he calls the highway patrol. He wants to get somebody else to look at this thing. and a highway patrolman comes out. He also sees the light. The light comes back up, flies off at high speed, then comes back while the highway patrol was there. They then call the uh uh county sheriffs. They come out. They see uh uh they inspect a little bit of the area where this object landed. They find some broken branches. They all decide to call the Air Force base. We happened to have what was called a UFO officer at the base at the time because of the Condan investigation. Wanted the Air Force to identify certain officers at certain bases uh to help them with their investigation. And so they identified this particular guy, a man by the name of Lieutenant Colonel Lewis Chase who was also the base operations officer. So Chase comes out. Um I don't know if he saw the object or not, but uh at that time uh but he decides that they can't bring a helicopter in that night. Um cuz they're not trained for uh night operations in that area. And so uh he wait wants to wait till the morning. And in the meantime, there are reports at Malmstrom Air Force Base. Objects are seen on radar. Objects are seen by airmen at the base. Uh again, bright white light uh flying around Mal Air Force Base. [sighs] Um and so, uh Chase decides he needs to report all this. Um, and he does in a a telegram to Air Force headquarters and also reports to Edward Condan. Uh, writes a couple of reports. I've got copies of them. Um, and they take the statement of the truck driver, etc. And by the way, in the meantime, my missiles are shut down. >> So, you have missile security officers who are topside. They're calling down and they're saying they're seeing >> no no security officers. These are >> airmen, you know, the non-commissioned officers, NCOs's. >> Okay. >> Uh and they're responsible for the security of the launch control facility. In other words, they and that's what I told him. So after the first call, we just hung up because there was no point in talking about license to Scott. I didn't think. So, you were like, "What are you talking about?" And you hung up and you were like, "Yeah, >> basically." Yeah. I wasn't too interested in what he had to say after that because uh you know, he could have been seeing little stars up there. I don't know. Uh but then five minutes later, he calls back and this time he's frightened. He's really frightened. He's screaming into the phone. He's babbling. Can't I got to calm him down? And finally, I calm him down. and he says, "Sir, we got all the guards out. Uh, they're they've got their weapons pointed at this red orange light, uh, pulsating light. It's huge. It's uh, you know, I think he said 40 or some feet long. Um, it was hard to see inside." I said, "Try to look inside the light and see if there's a solid object in there." Um, he said it's it's really difficult because it's so bright, but it looks like there's some kind of a solid object in there. Oval shaped is what he said. And I said, uh, and then he said, "What do I do, sir?" You know, I basically told him, I don't remember the exact words, but I basically told him to make sure the security uh the facility is secure, that nobody enters the fenced area. Um, you know, basically it's your responsibility, right? Uh, and so he hung up. He he first said, "A guard got injured and I got to go [sighs and gasps] there." The injury I'll talk about later, but it had nothing to do with the UFO. Um, so he hung up. [clears throat] First thing I did is I looked over at our board, our status board that showed the status of each missile, right? And yeah, all the missiles were green at that time, ready to go, ready to launch at any time. I went over to talk to my commander, uh, Fred Milo was taking a rest break, [gasps] woke him up and started to tell him about the phone calls and because now I'm thinking there's something serious going on out there. Uh, that guy was really scared, really frightened. And um before I could tell them about the phone calls, we get a big horn go off. One of the missiles went off alert status or went from green to red. No go. Can't launch it. >> Had that ever happened in your career thus far? >> I was there for three years. That one of them may have gone down for some power problem. Uh we had triple power redundancy. But anyway uh but nothing like multiple shutdowns. And right after that one went down. All of them went down one one at a time. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, Mudwater has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post coffee crash. And let's not even get into the caffeine jitters. Mudwater gave me the smooth, steady energy I was missing. It's packed with functional mushrooms like lion's mane, chaga, and rayi. Plus, turmeric and cacao all working together to keep me focused, calm, and grounded. Honestly, it's like coffee went on a yoga retreat and came back zen. What I love most is that it's not just about replacing coffee. It's a whole new ritual. It's a simple, nourishing way to start the day, and I actually look forward to it every morning. 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They're about a mile away, mile or two. Um, but at two of them we had incursion lights, meaning it's possible someone or something was trying to enter those facilities where the missiles were. So, I got on the horn or the phone and uh called upstairs. First thing I asked about was this bright red glowing object and he said uh it just took off, sir. It's gone. Um, but it was there when the missiles went out. Uh, but anyway, I sent guards out there and they again saw an object above two of the launch facilities. [snorts] Um, again, bright bright light hovering just above the facilities. Uh, we brought those guys back to where we were. Uh and they lost radio contact on the way back. [sighs] Strange. Anyway, uh mywald called wing command post [sighs and gasps] report the our incident a shutdown, you know, requesting maintenance crews to come out because we had a way of querying the system. Uh we would get an audio feedback of uh what was wrong with each missile. They were all reading guidance and control system failure. So we thought, well, okay, we got to send a team out there to restart the missiles, each one, and retarget them. We had to check the targeting again. [gasps] Uh, but after that call, he hangs up. He turns to me and he says, "The same thing happened at another flight." Now, I thought he meant that evening, but what he meant to say was that it happened before uh 8 days earlier and that was what we refer to now as the echo flight incident. We were at Oscar Flight. >> Uh-huh. And so before before we get into the uh echo Yeah. Go for it. >> Yeah. But the the reason the belt sighting was important uh was because uh when Robert Jameson was called at home to come in to the base, he was asleep. He was called he said around 10 10:30 in the evening uh told to come into the base uh because there were uh missile shutdowns you need to work on. >> Yeah. In March of 1967, I got a call saying a missile went off alert in Oscar flight. Well, that's all the information was given. They said a missile went off alert. So, I had called my team together. We went down to the hangar. I no sooner walked into the hangar and a friend of mine walked up to me and says, "Have you heard what happened?" No. Uh, I just got here. He says, 'Well, a missile, a UFO was reported over Roy Met, Montana, which is where Oscar Flight was, and all missiles went off alert. And I said, "It's not possible. Couldn't happen." So, I went to a place called Job Control just to see, just to confirm this. And sure enough, on Job Control, they have a wall and they have green lights for all the missiles are on alert. We had 200 missiles at the time except for one corner. All 10 missiles were off alert. all 10 whole flight was off alert all red and so then I said yeah they were off alert it doesn't happen >> and he was also told that we are on lockdown right now because there's too much UFO activity going on like like I mentioned there were overflights of Mel Air Force Base >> they assigned me four missiles to restart he says go ahead get your team ready but stay here don't leave the hanger yet until we sure that all the activity out there has ceased and there's nothing else going on. Then we can release you. So I stayed around for the hanger for a couple of hours and then just before we were released we had to go into a special briefing. Normally we go into a briefing where they give you your what your job is, the road road conditions at the time, weather conditions, anything else we may need to know. This time they brought us into a special briefing and they told us there's UFOs out in the area. Here's what you have to do. If you're on your road and you see a UFO, let us know by radar and go to the nearest launch control facility and okay, if you're breaking into the site, just break just withdraw from the site. Let us give us a call and let us know what's happening. You see a UFO. However, if you're in the site and you're doing your work, I to take myself, my team members, and all our targeting tapes, take them downstairs into the silo, close the silo, and we all take a guard with us. We have to leave him on top. Nothing happened on the way out there and the targeting, the restarts, I had four of them, and they went rather smoothly. Missiles went right up as if nothing had happened to them. And I came back and then was g brief given another briefing. I was told I wasn't supposed to tell about talk about this but I am coming out now. >> But Jameson was told about the belt incident. >> The same person that told me all 10 missiles went off alert also told me that there was a UFO that went down into a canyon near a little town not far from called Belt, Montana. It's a can there was a canyon there and there was a UFO trapped in a canyon. And uh Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. But he told me I'd go to the command post. He sent him a command command post in the colonel's briefing room. So I went over there and I was heard what they what they were looking at. They had a radio contact with the people out in the field and they were telling me about the lights and now there's blue lights. Now there's green lights. I was looking at the uh UFO down at the bottom of the canyon. Now, they were going, the canyon is too steep to send men down in the night. This is at night time. Walls are too steep to send men down at night or even a helicopter down through that. So, they're going to take in soon as daylight comes, they're going to take some helicopters and bring go down in there. And I found out later, yeah, as soon as daylight came, they sent the helicopters and this UFO just went right through the helicopters and out between the helicopters and out. >> That's amazing. So you have Bob Jameson who is a he's a targeting officer. Is that right? >> Right. >> And then who else came out publicly alongside you to test to testify to this UFO event? >> Well, eventually I got a hold of my commander who was down there with me. He was the crew commander, Fred Maywald. He had retired a full colonel. um had a distinguished career in uh strategic air command uh headquarters. Uh but of course he verified the essentials of the story. He didn't remember at the time when I first contacted him exactly how many missiles had gone off alert, but he remembered we did lose missiles uh during UFO sightings. Did you record that conversation or is it public or is it just you went Tim? >> I recorded it. It's on my website. >> That's amazing. >> spiralgalaxy.org. >> Check it out. >> All right. Here's the sequence. I remember I remember receiving a call first and and the security guard said, "Uh, I've seen some UFOs up here flying around." And I said, "Uh, forget it." You know, I didn't believe him. I kind of hung up on him. And then a little while later, I don't know how long it was, maybe 5 10 minutes, maybe longer, uh they called back and guy sounded real scared and said there was one just outside the front gate. And uh he he also said, I recall that uh one of the other guards had gotten injured in some way. I I don't I don't think it was from the UFO. I think it was from uh trying to climb the fence or something like that. Uh and then I hung up or he hung up because he had to go. This guard got injured and then and then I believe you were either getting up or I woke you up and then some of our missiles started setting down. Is that right? >> Mhm. >> Is that about how you remember it? >> Right. We had security alarms and uh >> Yeah. problems at a couple of the uh sites. >> Yeah. Okay. So, I remember the two guards that had gone out to one of the sites uh finally got back scared to death. We had to relieve them of duty. >> Yeah. >> Oh, you mean our guards? >> Yeah. >> Oh, I didn't know that. >> Yeah. Russ Patrol type. >> Oh, I see. They had gone out to one of the sites on the LF and on the way back they lost radio contact and we ended up having to send them back to base earlier. I'm not sure what happened. I don't think they ever returned to uh guard duty. >> And what were they scared about? >> Well, they had seen these crazy things then >> Oh, they did? >> Yeah. >> Have they reported that to you? I reported it to the top side guy. >> Oh, the topside guy. That's right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, interesting. Don't you think? >> Yeah. Um, does anybody at the time after this experience come up with a prosaic explanation as to what's happened or is everybody basically uh on the sort of consensus view that there was UFOs appearing and that ostensibly there's some connection between the UFOs appearing above the base and these 10 missiles going down. There were uh one of the documents we received from the air force was a telegram or TX about the echoflight shutdown. Right? It names two individuals by name that worked for boy aircraft. [gasps] Uh the sack headquarters uh wanted people to do a complete investigation of what happened. They used the words, "This is of grave concern because we don't have any idea what happened. I've got that TX." You know, this was no test. There was no test involved here. Sack headquarters uh demanded that Boeing do an investigation. >> And SAC for everybody is is strategic air command. >> That's right. >> Yeah. No. >> So they had they viewed this as a genuine UFO event taking down. >> Well, because there were witnesses uh to the objects uh being seen over over the Echollight and also in in the case of the Echolight, they had security guards and maintenance people already on site. They had stayed the night because they were going to work on those missiles. Uh and they reported to uh Feele, Walt Feele, uh UFOs overhead or whites that they couldn't explain overhead uh when the missiles went down. >> The strike team that went out, one of the two claimed that they saw something over the site. >> How did they describe that? >> He just said a large round object >> directly over the LS. >> Directly over the site. Let's talk about a guilt-free alternative to alcohol that's perfect for your dry January or anytime you want to unwind. 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He contacts Roy Craig, the chief investigator for Condan, tells him all about, gives him details, gives him names, dates, places, etc., phone numbers of his people that can confirm the UFO's connection. And uh Craig says, "Okay, I'm going to go out to Malstrom and check this out." So he goes to Melstrom. And I've got this on audio tape also, by the way. He talks to Lewis Chase, the base ops officer, the base UFO officer, the same guy that went out to Belt, Montana, saw the object out there, wrote a uh two uh messages, one that said uh US Air Force headquarters and another one to uh Condan uh about the activity. And in one of those he says, "I went to the base command post or the wing command post rather and talked to the the officer in charge there. This was the same officer that we had reported our incident to." And he said, "I coordinated with him on the UFO activity in writing." He's got this in writing. When Craig goes out there to talk to him, uh, Chase, he denies it. >> The following interview conducted by Roy Craig is with Lieutenant Colonel Lewis D. Chase, who is chief of the operations division at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana. The interview is being conducted at MRI on October 19th, 1967. Now, right about that same time, we heard rumbles from other area that uh something happened here on the bay uh related to the uh the failure of a flight of women. Uh it's about 24th of March and uh this has if any connection with the UFO business. Uh the rumor the rumor uh Mel has that there was a UFO by one of the U sack maintenance crew who went out uh to check out why the flight had uh lost power. uh as far as the status as a missile site concerned here I can't discuss with Dr. Right. They thought what is on alert, what is not for all periods of time. Uh I shouldn't refer you to other people on that. >> Yeah. >> All I can tell you is at the time that we had the reported landing uh the whole area here we we had lots of reports on them. But I'm not privy to knowledge of what the status of the missile missile sites are. You can see this of necessity must be must be classified and I'm not privy to this type of knowledge. I think the the comment that came to us was that that u some of the maintenance crew who had to check out sites that had lost power unexplained. >> Wow. >> Uh had said they saw a Wi-Fi come down and circle the base and broad daylight or something like this and then this would denied the next day after it had been, you know, and then a big hush up sort of thing. You're not aware of anything of this sort? >> No. No. This I'm not because I wouldn't know what the status of the of the missiles were. >> Now, how about it's common for us to have a commercial power failure or something like this. This happens repeatedly such as commercial power does any. And I just have a suspicion that some of the commercial power people have there happened to be a power outage someplace and they tried to tie the two of them together. But this I wouldn't know. But I would respect this as a real strong possibility. >> He denies knowing anything about it. >> Why did he do that? >> He did that because he did not want Condan investigators snooping around and putting in their report that UFOs had shut down missiles. >> Do you think somebody got to him? Like why did he have some ulterior motive? Why why would he want why would he want to deny, you know, the uh committee that he's supposedly working for access to an event that seems like it's >> because the Air Force organized this whole con investigation is a whitewash. [sighs and gasps] >> It was whitewashed even before they got started. There's a famous letter written by the deputy datan, Robert Low, who wrote a memo uh uh stating that they were it was going to appear to be a scientific investigation, but indeed they would find nothing. >> [snorts] >> And then there was another letter that Chase had written after having a big meeting in June of ' 67 with other base UFO officers and the Condan investigative team. Um uh stating that the um the wording the final wording for the Condan investigation would read, you know, nothing to see here. Yeah, I believe there are letters too between uh Colonel Robert Hiper of the Air Force and Condan and basically Hitler saying like I want you to show that this was all a waste of time and money. He's talking about blue book and Condan sort of complying with that. So it seemed like a kind of a hit job from the start. >> It was a whitewash. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So in fact >> it was Hitler when uh after this meeting which I've between Craig and Lewis >> Craig went to Low and said maybe we ought to get the report on their investigation and uh Lo said later on he replied he said I've already talked to Hitler. Hitler said this is probably going to be too high uh highly classified for us to look at. And plus Hitler told him he they think the Air Force thinks that EMP from nuclear testing was the cause of these shutdowns. >> Really? >> Yes. Really? >> Back then? >> Back then. Back. >> Oh, >> I've got it in writing. >> That's wild. >> Interesting. any specifics on like the the model or anything or >> when I read that when we read that my investigator James Clattz who's a co-author of that first book we wrote a gentleman still living uh um we uh checked with the department of energy who was in charge of well cognizant of nuclear uh testing being done in the Nevada desert right time. There were no there were no nuclear tests on June or March 16th or March 24th. So it couldn't have been EMP from a nuclear test. Yeah. And that's I think you know I got into this whole squabble online or whatever where people are saying there were EMPs at Starfish Prime in ' 62 or whatever and there there are EMPs that are caused by nuclear detonations. >> Yes. But my understanding is that operational non-nuclear EMPs weren't maybe at most they were, you know, undergoing extremely preliminary investigation at DOE sensitive sites, but they weren't being used, let alone on our own nukes, live nukes. There's no way. >> Absolutely not. In fact, um, in our book again, the faded giant, we talk about, uh, references. We list the references. Actually, people can look them up. of uh testing that was done uh on our kind of equipment, but it was done at a base like um uh Space Missile Systems Organization in uh San Bernardino Hill Air Force Base in Utah, but it was uh not operational equipment. I mean it the equipment wasn't operational but it was the type of equipment we had right they did want to do authentic tests and to see what impact was now we're talking about something like the production of 6 million volts of electricity in EMP uh discharge we're also talking about uh equipment that was not mobile. In order to produce this EMP, they had to set up u a super structure to hold the u the generating device that would that would uh fire seven six million volts. And that took time to build. I mean it took at least 3 days from what I understand. Yeah, you can't install that in secret. Even in the diagram in the Wall Street Journal, >> it was like a 60 foot test stand or whatever was required to uphold the EMP. And the idea that that would get wheeled up to the gate without, you know, any of these, you know, officers Exactly. >> understanding that the EMP was there and not being freaked out about some UFO. >> Well, they would have reported it. The guards upstairs would have reported any activity like that. >> Yeah, it makes no sense. And it's interesting to see the Wall Street Journal use the same cover story as Robert Hitler used back then. That's you know kind of >> well kind of Hitler stated to Low apparently and I've got this in writing [gasps] handwritten note by Robert Low that he talked to Hitler and Hit Hitler told him the Air Force thinks that EMP from nuclear testing was the cause of the shut down. That's even better cuz that's like that's like Roswell where they have you know it's like a weather balloon and then it's like these you know Huntington's diseased children using you know experimental Nazi craft. It's like they changed the story like five times. So it sounds like back then it was a nuclear detonation. Now it's a test EMP. the exact model of which cited by the Wall Street Journal wasn't actually tested until 71 and ready and as until 70 1973, right? Which is absolutely crazy. >> Um interesting. Yeah, they got to get their story straight if you're going to debunk. Well, >> uh Boeing also did a bench test on what's called a logic coupler. Okay, the logic coupler is uh think of it as an onboard computer that would take data from uh onboard instruments after the launch of the missile Mini man one. Again, an inertial guidance system. We didn't have GPS satellites up there guiding this thing on target, right? It had to compute how well it was doing to get on target in flight. and this logic coupler would help with that processing. So, Boing took that piece of hardware and did a bench test and were able to um momentarily um cycle it off by injecting a certain um uh energy or electrical input. uh certain frequency, voltage, uh duration, and uh basically cause it to malfunction uh momentarily and cause the guidance system to shut down. >> Interesting. So uh they suggested it as a possible cause of the failure mode guidance and control system failure. [sighs and gasps] However, they had no idea how that could be injected into this each missile separately within seconds and shut each missile down uh so quickly. Um because number one we had uh what's called a um these large cable about 8 to 9 in in diameter. They were triply shielded. They went from the location we were the capsule uh underground for another mile or so. But they were triply shielded against EMI electromagnetic interference. And so they did say in this report that um they think it was an externally cause uh it was an external signal that caused the shutdowns, but they could not explain how that signal got into the system. >> Yeah. So Boeing goes in, they test it, and presumably they're using whatever state-of-the-art methods exist at the time as far as shutting down nukes, and they're going directly after the accelerometers, these inertial mass units. And they can show that they could do it in one, but that doing it simultaneously in 10 is impossible, right? >> And they admit to being puzzled afterwards. That's they're they're brought in as consultants. They are paid presumably to, you know, success for them is explaining it in a prosaic fashion. That's how they're judged and they're unable to do that. >> Yeah. They were identified, these two, the individuals that did this testing were identified by SAC headquarters by name. They wanted those two people to do these uh, you know, to do part of the investigation. But we were in contact with uh James Clattz and I uh made contact with them and talked to them um and they said that um they couldn't explain how that signal could have possibly have gotten in there. Hey everyone, Jesse here. Let's talk about something a lot of us quietly deal with. Hair loss. This is something that messes with your confidence more than you'd expect. 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Outside of having experienced this highly anomalous event and probably being questioned about it and wanting to get the message out that maybe we're we're not alone. uh you know outside of that did it change your perspective on life or you know change your view your worldview in any kind of profound ways? >> Well um I lost confidence in the integrity of the air force after that for sure. You know I had planned uh a career in the air force and after this I wasn't quite so sure I wanted to do that. Uh and so it changed it in that way. >> Yeah. And Malmstrom is no stranger to incidents like these, right? So the eight days before you mentioned the Echollight incident, what exactly happened there? >> Echollight um Walt Feele again a lieutenant at the time, later Colonel retired. Uh as far as I know, still living. Talked to him about a year ago I think. But um he was in he was uh in charge of the facility. Uh and one of the missiles get shut down. One of the missiles where um he had guards and security uh well maintenance people and security people out at two of the launch facilities. They had stayed overnight because they were going to start early the next morning and do some kind of modification to these uh missiles. Um he calls out there and says, "You guys aren't supposed to do anything without my permission." And they said, "We didn't do anything. Uh, by the way, the these objects are hovering just above us. [sighs] [laughter] And uh, at first he couldn't believe what they were saying, but uh, very shortly after that, all 10 of his missiles went down. >> Wild. So very similar. >> Similar. Yeah. And then I want to tell you about an incident that happened in 1966, September of 1966 at Minot Air Force Base, [sighs] North Dakota, not in Montana. This is just North Dakota. Uh again, another witness has come forward, man by the name of David Shindell, um who relieved a crew. Uh but before they relieved the crew, they he talked to the security people upstairs who told who told him that UFOs were seen over the facility the night before. When they got down to relieve the crew, all 10 missiles had been shut down. >> After entering the capsule, our eyes were immediately transfixed on the launch control council, which showed that all missiles were off alert and unlaunchable. We had never seen such a thing before. The outgoing crew briefed us on the wild events that transpired overnight and indicated that the missiles malfunctioned at the time the object was hovering directly above the capsule and next to the main gate. >> And again, uh this was as a result of the UFO activity above the facility. So, we're talking between September of ' 66 and March of ' 67, we lost 30 missiles to UFO activity. >> It's wild. Yeah. >> 30 >> 30. That's pretty pretty insane. Um, and in Malmstrom itself, I mean, even Robert Hastings, who wrote this, you know, probably the authoritative chronicle of all of the UFO events when it comes to nuclear weapons, UFO and nukes, great book. Uh, >> he was a janitor at Malmstrom Air Force Base, I believe, in ' 67, and he, I guess this like radar operator had taken him under his wing and was teaching him about radar theory and brought him over. They said they were tracking unknowns at the time. >> One night, and as best as I can tell, it [music] was the second half of March of ' 67, was emptying trash cans and pushing a broom. And he motioned me over to his scope. And he pointed, [music] he said, "We're tracking." And he probably said, "Unknkowns." That's the formal term for unidentified objects. [music] I saw five blips in the sort of northeast quadrant of his radar scope. >> And then he thinks that that might have been around the same time as as your incident. >> It could have been. Uh I believe his father worked in that facility. >> That's right. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh this was part of the NORAD organization, right? That >> Yep. that would monitor the skies for possible incoming, you know, bombers or whatever heading for the US. But, uh, yeah, that's that's true. >> And then I believe um, in 1993, there's a a now retired missile technician, a guy named John Mills, who was headed, I think, with, you know, some four other guys. They had left the base and they're headed towards Malmstrom. they saw a UFO hovering around Malmstrom. They get back to the base and apparently everybody there said that the base had been swarmed. Um, and so and then there's there's even there other there's a guy named Chris Langan who's known for having this sort of theory of everything in physics, which you know, maybe take that with a grain of salt. I don't know how real that is, but you know, maybe he's got a big ego. I don't know if the theory is real. I don't think he's lying about the fact that he said he was driving past, you know, um uh uh uh near uh Malmstrom and he sees a UFO right ahead >> on the UFO thing. I was working for the Forest Service, not too far from Malmstrom Air Force Base. One day I was up there in a Forest Service pickup truck at a certain campground and uh I was there and suddenly I look up and I I say suddenly, it was just in the sky. I became aware that it was up there and I looked up. There's this huge spheroidal, you know, but elliptical, not not a perfect spheroid, like a saucer that was turned partially on its side. So it just seems like there's a real pattern over time with >> uh even though the air force tried to get out of in in 1969 they even quoted the Condan investigation said that um we have no evidence that UFOs cause are a cause of national security concern and uh therefore We're going to shut down Blue Book. We're not going to be reporting to the public on UFO sightings, and we're probably not going to do much investigating ourselves. Well, uh, incidents continue to occur, you know, again in, uh, uh, 1975 at Malmstrom. Uh there is a NORAD report of UFO sight settings again over Melmstrom uh missile bases [sighs] 1968. Uh I've listed about 13 in my book uh incidents involving nuclear weapons and UFO. >> And when you did come out and go public, you you've done interviews with Larry King and you've spoken at various conferences all over the world. Um, did you receive any backlash and did you uh experience any resistance about your testimony? >> I never have. >> That's pretty remarkable. Do you have a theory as to why? Because some of your colleagues who have come gone public, people like Bob Jacobs, photo instrumentation specialist at Vandenberg in ' 64, he's experienced obviously a lot of reprisals and, you know, took a career, such a career hit that they denied he ever even worked at at Vandenberg and was, you know, uh uh even involved, you know, in the Air Force. >> Yeah. my uh uh I'm just speculating again why because I did sign a non-disclosure agreement which basically I violated when I started going public about my incident being at Oscar flight. I didn't find that out until 1996 when I finally contacted uh I was able to contact my commander Fred Maywald and he told me we were not at Echo Flight. We were at Oscar Flight. I've been speaking that about the Echollight incident as though it was mine because it was so similar to what I had recalled. >> But once he told me that, I realized I was in violation of the NDA and I had to make a decision as to whether I I should shut up, no longer talk about it, or keep going, keep talking about it. And I decided to keep going. >> Did they make you sign an NDA around this specific incident or just working? Really? >> Yes. >> And that's what everybody says. That's what Mario Woods says. That's what you know, everybody who experiences the incident right after they make you sign an NDA, >> right? >> And do you remember what the NDA said or like what what that was like? Like like who came up to you and said, "You have to sign this?" >> Yeah. Uh right after we were relieved by another crew after our incident occurred, we were ordered back to the base to our squad commander's office. We walked in there and uh first thing I asked, by the way, uh my squad commander who was an exWorld War II B17 pilot, tough as nails, he was white as a sheet. And I asked him what the hell happened there. I, you know, in our incident, was this some kind of an Air Force test to see, you know, how we'd respond or anything like that? He said, "Absolutely not. There was no test involved." He didn't know anything more than I did. And by the way, he introduced me to a man from AFOSI, Air Force Office of Special Investigation. who was in the office with him and all he wanted was to have us sign a non-disclosure agreement. I complained about that because um we already had above top secret. You know, if they told us not to talk about this, we wouldn't, you know. Um but that seems like a recurring pattern is an Air Force office with special investigation agent always shows up around nuclear UFO incidents and then swears you to secrecy, >> right? >> So that's Yeah. just seems like this uh pattern that's fascinating. >> They want to clamp down on witnesses. >> Are you familiar with have you heard of the pentacle memo? Do you know what that is? >> No. >> So this was Jacqu Valet who is kind of Jaylen Heinik's assistant you know blue book obviously Jaylen Heinik is this you know northwestern professor astronomer. So Jacques Val is looking through the blue book blue book files and he finds this thing called the pentacle memo which is this guy named Howard Cros who is a guy who works at Battel Memorial Institute and he is writing basically uh saying like we have a all these sensitive sites around which UFOs are showing up regularly and we know that these hotspots exist and Battel is going to do a more surgical real investigation of these things while basically, you know, Blue Book is going to go on doing its kind of front front-facing kind of BS PR job and Jacqu Valet and apparently this couldn't get brought up around the Robertson panel like there's you're you were not supposed to bring this this memo up and so Jacqu Valet goes to Jaylen Heinik privately and says, "Did you know about this?" like, you know, are you um are you kind of complicit in uh uh basically concealing, you know, our what's supposed to be this earnest UFO inquiry from this actually real vital investigation that's going on around, you know, nuclear sites across the US and Jaylen Heinick kind of plays dumb and says, you know, I didn't know about it and stuff. Uh, but I do wonder sometimes, you know, especially when you hear this very coordinated effort that involves Air Force Office of Special Investigations agents, was there something underneath Blue Book, underneath the Cotton, you know, commission that was very real about, you know, there was a real UFO investigation going on at the time. >> Oh, absolutely. No question about it. Uh I mentioned that uh you know since probably 47 there's been um an attempt to uh seriously cover up uh anything um that was found related to UFOs, you know, such such as craft that were retrieved or nonhuman intelligences that were retrieved. Uh, and those were studied and worked on in secret. Well, like you say, organizations like Blue Book were just kind of a a way to uh quell public excitement over this subject. >> Yeah. At what point do you think the Air Force made that decision to split off kind of, you know, the this front-facing facade blue book and then more vital investigations of UFOs? Was it around the Robertson panel in 1952 maybe or >> Okay, so in uh 1948 there was a um uh and this was the precursor to Blue Book. It was called Project Sign, >> right? people that were working on that had come up with enough information, pilot reports, etc. U [sighs and gasps] to conclude that these were extraterrestrial objects. They were not manufactured on Earth and they wanted and so the the Air Force chief of staff Vandenberg uh wanted a briefing and so they produced a briefing for him uh called the estimate of the situation. It was a real document. It was seen by Rupelt uh who would be the next uh head of Blue Book, the first head of Blue Book really uh after project sign. And he read the thing and and he could confirmed in his book. I've got a copy of his book that he wrote [sighs and gasps] uh Rupelt wrote >> his report on the unidentified object. Yeah. >> Yeah. And um he confirmed that uh they had strong evidence that these were not aircraft uh that we knew how to build uh because the their abilities to maneuver maneuvering abilities [gasps] and confirmed this must have been from elsewhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you had Nathan Twining writing in this 1947 memo to this guy Brigadier Schulgrren and he's saying, you know, UFOs are not visionary or fictitious. He even says in the postcript of the memo, we have within our means or within our knowledge the ability to build these crafts, but if we were to do that, if if if directed, you know, these would need to basically look like the Manhattan project. They need to take place in a wholly separate compartment from existing projects. and you know kind of exist very you know subrosa and in this sort of secret >> but anyway uh Vandenberg uh didn't buy this estimate of the situation and uh basically informed Blue Book that you know they're full of it. They're they're going to tamp down on uh any any idea that these could be extraterrestrial and and so they changed the whole fabric of uh Blue Book. Um after that turned into a project grudge I think it was called. >> Yeah. >> After Blue Book. Um and that's when they started uh doing more disinformation and and again from the Robertson panel too the the directive was um let's keep an eye on UFO act uh groups that are looking at this these reports. Uh let's infiltrate them. uh let's you know do whatever we can to keep the public from getting too excited about all this. >> Yeah. >> To this day, >> right? [laughter] >> So we just talked about the Condan Commission which was a very interesting you know supposed to be this impartial study that the Air Force was supposed to have no involvement with and you know they were going to objectively evaluate the results of Blue Book. I think we both know that might actually not have been the case. It might have been sort of a bad faith effort. Talk talk to us about that because that's I didn't even realize, you know, I've been talking about your story for a while because such a remarkable case >> and I didn't even realize how much the Condan Commission kind of tied in, you know, with the officer there and Yeah. [clears throat] >> Uh well, let me let me just start with this. Um, in 1949, I believe it was, um, Jed Ghuber wrote a letter, um, to Congress. I'm not sure it was McCarthy or not, but, uh, in that letter, he identified Edward Condan as, and, I'm paraphrasing, nothing less than a Russian spy. [laughter] I've got a copy of that letter. And so Conan, who had been um actually part of u the Manhattan Project, he was number two man under um under Openheimimer, but there was a security issue. I don't know the details of that, but uh he was asked to resign from the Manhattan project from because of some security issue. And so he did resign but later he was appointed um I'm um not sure the agency but uh by Truman he was appointed to some head of agency and then this letter comes out from Hoover and um so he was questioned by uh during the McCarthy hearings and uh eventually he lost his security clearance. as a result of that. And so he went to work for the University of Colorado as a physicist. He was a very good physicist, well respected. Um and at some point um a I think this was a someone who knew him, Lou Branskum. >> Lou Branskum. Yeah. >> Yeah. he came to visit Condan and said, you know, uh, and this was in the around 1966, I think it was. Um, I said, you know, it's been a while since um since you lost your security clearance. Maybe it's time you reapply to see if you can get that clearance back [sighs] because I know you want to do some research uh um and get some government funding for it. And um he said um well he wasn't sure this would be um successful but Bransk told him uh you know the Air Force needs someone to head up this UFO study and it would help if you accepted that it will probably help you get your security clearance. Anyway, that's that's the background. I don't know what actually happened there, but uh Conan actually gave an interview to the um um physical society or physical >> American Institute of Physics. >> Thank you. American Institute of Physics. He gave a long interview uh and I think this was discussed in that interview. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny in that interview he talks about Lou L Branscom just randomly goes up to him. He says, "Hey, maybe you should get your security clearance back. No explanation." And Branscom is deep in the uh kind of defense, you know, elite apparatus of the US at the time. He's a part of the Jason Advisory Group, which is, you know, this group that's meeting in Santa Barbara talking about the most kind of elite frontier weaponry, you know, uh uh defensive and offensive. And so he he goes to to to Khan and says, "Maybe you should get your security clearance back." The interviewer in this American Institute of Physics interview with uh Condan then says, "Why'd you need your security clearance? Like if all of this stuff was bogus, were you, you know, reviewing any sort of classified material as part of the Condan, you know, commission?" And he gets very awkward and he says, "Well, you know, maybe there was a video or two. I don't really know." You know, sort of like walking back, you know, his stuff. >> Um, and it's interesting. I didn't know that about the Jag Garoover letter about him, but I did I did know that a guy named Guy Hodddle, who's an FBI field agent in Washington, is basically uh creating a dossier on Condan throughout the 50s after he loses his Q clearance. >> And he did clash with Leslie Grove six weeks into the Manhattan Project because he wanted, you know, more openness around nuclear stuff. Uh and so that's why he was fired. And so that brings up this line in uh the movie Oppenheimer where Leslie Groves's character he says, you know, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies. I hired him because of them. >> And I think about this guy in in Condan who's been marginalized. You know, he's lost his Q clearance. They said that, you know, he had labor labor sympathies in the 20s or whatever. And then they just randomly give him his clearance back. you know, they and they have all this comprom. I mean, who I couldn't pick a better person to do your dirty work as far as kind of doing a hit job on on the whole UFO thing, >> right? >> It's fascinating. >> Also, you know, he wrote the McMahon Secrecy Act, which was in 1946. >> A lot of the language in that act worked its way into the Atomic Energy Act of 1954. And so, he's kind of laid out the secrecy protocols for UFOs. And then so it's this weird history with Condan. It's just fascinating. >> Yeah. >> Do you think that that's going on at all today? Because you, you know, you have this Wall Street Journal article coming out saying that an EMP was, you know, somehow wheeled up to, you know, Malmstrom in plain sight of all these people who claim to witness a UFO. They don't even report on the witnessing of the UFO. They just discard that entirely. It just seems like a hit job. like this doesn't seem like an earnest uh impartial accounting of the facts that you relayed to them. >> Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that. Why would they come after me? Uh well, I can think of uh the rationale uh that would go this way. um the basis of our national security. So says the Department of Defense on a yearly basis when they they put out their um nuclear posture review. It's a basically a a statement um about nuclear weapons is that nuclear deterrence is the backbone the basis of our national security. Nuclear deterrence. So if I start, you know, coming forward and speaking about strange objects that are able to, uh, disable our nuclear weapons. [sighs and gasps] Uh, of course, um, that's going to require the Department of Defense to explain what they're doing about it, if anything, whether they can do anything about it. And they've al already said no. uh nuclear deterrence which is the concept started in the 50s by the way that says if we have a prepundonderance of nuclear weapons more [clears throat] than any other nation or at least as much um no nation will attack us with nuclear weapons or even non-uclear weapons. Um and so we've used that rationale. That rationale caused uh the arms race during the cold war, right? To the point where in 1967 uh the world uh nuclear powers had a 32,000 32,000 nuclear weapons. Now, uh, these weapons range, you know, in the kiloton range to, uh, to megaton or million tons of TNT equivalent. Um, but certainly enough to destroy every living thing on Earth if we use them in a nuclear war. And we still have 20,000 today total. Uh we've got nine new uh nuclear nations and uh everybody's afraid now that Iran will get one. >> That's right. And um the fact is that u you know with uh an a an effort it's nuclear weapons are probably could probably be accessed by any country that really wants them because the technology is out there. How to build a nuclear bomb is out there. In fact, I once saw a website that went through all the details on how to do that. >> Jesus. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [sighs and gasps] Uh anyway, um so I don't think uh the the the reason they would want to discredit people like myself, Dave Chandell, and many other witnesses to this phenomenon where UFOs have been interacting at nuclear weapons facilities. Um, I've only touched the surface with those 13 that I mentioned in my book. There have been many, many others. I've been in touch with witnesses who are afraid to come forward or can't come forward because of uh non-disclosure agreements and fear of losing their jobs or their lives, whatever. Um, but there are many other witnesses out there that could come forward uh to talk about incidents that happened um where they were involved. >> Have you met any witnesses who have not been public and kind of fear for their lives or reputations and confide in you around this stuff? >> Yes. >> Have you met any that also have nuclear incidents, nuclear related? >> Yes. Have you met any that have seen craft in hangers in on the ground or are they all aerial witnessings of UFOs? Well, uh what I can tell you is that uh I had um uh something happened to me where I met uh one of my friends from the Air Force Academy um who indicated to me that he had actually flown um um a craft similar to a UFO uh that operated under the similar principles. >> Wow. Was in his belief it was of non-human origin or it was like in some sort of >> uh gravity modifying craft that we had built. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> uh we didn't get into those details but uh let's just say I believed him and uh so I think we have back engineered uh craft that had been recovered. >> That's wild. Did he say anything about the experience of flying it like the GeForce or the >> He was pretty excited but uh the way it went down it was very quick. [sighs and gasps] >> Uh he was Um, he didn't want to go into details. Obviously, this was highly classified. [sighs] Um, and he was concerned about my knowing about it after he said it. >> But you you feel like he was trustworthy. >> Absolutely. I spent four years going through the academy with him. >> Wow. >> Well, that that's always >> I knew I knew him very well. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's not not your uh limited hangout, you know, at a UFO conference, you get targeted with some some info or whatever. It's this is a long trusted friend >> who opens up to you towards the end of that four-year period around this. >> Oh, it was after >> it was after. >> Oh, yeah. I was out of the Air Force at the time. >> So, how long had you known him before he confided in you around this? Well, I' uh I'd say uh well, we went through four years together and this was about 10 years after graduation. >> Well, I won't push you farther, but if he wants to go public at any point, I would talk to him. [laughter] >> That is fascinating. >> Yeah. Uh but I [sighs] let's just say I know other witnesses who could come forward and validate some of these things. >> It's so interesting. I mean yeah clearly even you look at Robert Hastings's book and you have 167 Q cleared guys who all had to sign NDAs immediately after their sightings many of whom faced career reprisals. You have to think if 167 people who are coming out despite all the disincentives to come out, it's got to be thousands of actual witnesses and people who who you know in reality have experienced things around nuclear specifically alone. >> Um there have been many many. Yes. And it's so interesting too to you know sometimes you'll hear about a UFO story in the lore like the aerial school sighting in 1994 with you have 60 you know school children in Zimbabwe and you learn that there's a uranium mine right there or the Pasigula you know the fisherman in Pasigula you know and in 74 and then you realize that all the you know Navy nuclear subs were being built in Pasigula Missouri. So there's often this kind of unknown connection too. Do you think that it's um you know we were talking about theories before the cameras were rolling. Do you think that they're trying to save us from ourselves and make us realize our sort of brutish ways? Do you think that it generalizes beyond nuclear to like you know advanced science like particle accelerators or AI or you know any other things like that or do you think it's just nuclear? What do you think? Uh well, what I think is u uh they see us as very warlike and and with nuclear weapons um we could we could have a nuclear war. I mean it's not out of the realm of possibility. Now [sighs] I think um what's happening in currently with Iran and Israel um um you know we can we can all visualize how that could escalate into the use of [sighs and gasps] of nuclear weapons. >> I Yeah, go for it now. What were you going to say? Uh we also have Pakistan and India who are at war with each other both nuclear powers. Russia has threatened to use so-called tactical nukes against Ukraine. Uh but even if a small nuke like a and by that we're talking about uh these tactical nukes are 15 to 20 kilotons equivalent uh TNT and [clears throat] that's the same size nuke that was used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. >> Yeah, it's a scary state. We're in a multipolar nuclear world. It's a like you know it's funny. I feel like cold war uh tensions have died down in some ways as far as like the zeitgeist, you know, that sort of dive, duck, and roll. Like we're we're not mentally prepared, but it's actually worse than, you know, maybe pre, you know, Berlin wall falling where all of a sudden you have Xi and Putin closer than they've ever been. You know, Iran and Israel is really a proxy war for this larger kind of global global conflict. You have Pakistan, you know, having nukes, which like, you know, think about the amount of uh al-Qaeda still in Wazeristan, northern Pakistan, like that could be a failed state at any moment. I think Obama was quoted as saying that keeps him up more than anything at night that Pakistan becoming a failed state. So the amount of threat vectors around nuclear specifically are growing. And sometimes I think I don't know if you think this too that like if there was ever a an explicit disclosure moment, it might occur around us being on the brink. If you have another kind of Cuban Cuban missile crisis or an event where nukes are about to go off and you have more explicit intervention like the intervention you saw at Melmstrom in ' 67 but around missiles that are maybe about to go off or something that might bring the you know kind of collective world into greater understanding around these things. I don't know. So in 1914, HG Wells wrote this book called The World Set Free. And in that book, he talks about uh the construction of an atomic bomb. >> Yeah. M and not only that but he talks about um in different terms but the generation of of energy or electricity from u a nuclear reactor. >> He even predicted dates which are close. The first nuclear reactor went online in Russia in 1954 and I think he he mentions in his this novel the world set free. Um it happened in uh 55 I think in in this book. Um but even talks about the first time on a splitting of the atom and something like the transmutation uh which occurred creating uh two different elements by the splitting of the atom. Yeah. which actually happened. That was um uh happened to be a Nazi scientist by the name of um Han I think uh who did an experiment in 1938 and uh was first uh to split the atom. And plus they detected a certain uh amount of energy from from that reaction that could be enormous if uh many atoms were split uh in very short order which was the chain reaction right which was later done. But anyway, this book became uh um the reason that uh was it was brought to the attention by Einstein and and another fellow whose name I can't remember right now, but they wrote to FDR for a meeting about the possibility that Germany could build an atomic bomb. Um, and that's what started uh the process of u having our own program, the Manhattan Project uh to to beat Nazi Germany to the bomb. Yeah. >> So fascinating. Yeah. The history is so amazing. And you know, the Germans really seemed ahead of us for a while. They were worried. Heisenberg was known as this genius at the time and he was running the German program, >> right? And then Luis Walter Alvarez at the Livermore Lab, you know, figured out that, you know, maybe maybe we could do this too. And then it seems like they went off on the wrong path and really started experimenting with this heavy water engine, you know, this sort of dutarium. Um >> and uh >> and that ended up not working out. But um who knows, you know, the this is really trippy and weird, but it's just a connection I made is um a lot of the rumors around, you know, UFOs and how they fly involve a dutyium reactor, you know, in the middle, like a heavy water engine. And so I wonder if, you know, one timeline is like super destructive where we figure out the nuclear bomb and then maybe maybe Heisenberg was like on to something that involved civilside propulsion or something and then and then that's where the that's what the ETSs or whatever these beings are, the non-human, you know, beings are >> are flying around in, >> right? Well, you know, I like to conjecture that um since these are very advanced beings, if they were able to travel intergalactically or, you know, from another star system, um that they've been uh they've been through this process of uh developing weapons of mass destruction, maybe fought wars themselves, and and But we're finally able to determine how to live in peace with their neighbors. And they want to see us accomplish the same thing and get rid of our nuclear weapons and try [clears throat] to learn how to live in peace. >> Yeah. Is there a science fiction book that most accurately describes your worldview or do you think Yeah. What do you have a sense of the intention of the non-human intelligence? I mean, it sounds like you think that they're trying to kind of wake us up a little bit, but >> Well, I mean, uh, to me, I'm I'm just using logic. I'm, you know, I'm I'm thinking if they're so far advanced than us, they must have been through the same evolutionary process or a similar process uh where they had difficulty dealing with other groups, you know, other life forms and uh possibly had wars like we have had. and and they can see what where we're headed if we keep down this path. Like I said, the Department of Defense uses this idea of nuclear deterrence or having a nuclear weapons program that's greater, better than anyone else uh as a means to protect our national security. That's the basis. And so they want to keep the nuclear program going or with nuclear weapons, you know, and put the fear in everybody else that might try to attack us. And that's but that's not sustainable. That's not a sustainable program if other countries feel the same way, right? Because they're going to want nuclear weapons, too. And they have. >> Yeah. It's a scary time, >> right? It's hard to say where this all leads or goes, but like >> probabilistically, if you don't have non-human intelligence in the mix, then you'd assume some sort of nuclear calamity, you know, near term. Like it's hard to say that like if you have what' you say 20,000 nukes now and you know, uh >> approximately an increasingly kind of bulcanized complex web of alliances, you know, and with tensions rising, >> right? Uh it doesn't feel good. >> No, it's not good. >> Yeah. >> And so that's why we have to make the effort to try to abolish them uh worldwide. The salt I think was uh no it's called a new start treaty when President Obama was in office actually signed a treaty with Russia to reduce the number of operational weapon nuclear weapons. I think it was 1,500 each. So we each country would have 1,500. Um and then work towards reducing them till we got to zero both the US and Russia. And of course there was a inspection regime where they would they would send inspectors here, we would in send inspectors there to see um what was going on in each country with the reduction of nuclear weapons. So there was an active program to go to zero between two of the major players in nuclear weapons. Um, so we we can't just assume this can't be done. As Openheimer said in his one of his last speeches that he gave u to his scientists, uh, we can't afford to think that we can't abolish all nuclear weapons. Well, yeah, you had the salt talks as well in the 70s and you had uh back channels that JFK had established with Kruev where he was trying for Daytona and trying for you know denuclearization and you had guys like Alan Dulles who he had fired director of the CIA who basically wanted to take him out whether he did or not. you know, I think he might have, but um you know, around around that issue and then yeah, like you said, Obama had that initiative, but then you look at the same forces kind of behind Obama and you had this Ukraine peace deal in April of, you know, uh 2022, right after it started. And you know, we have not done Ukraine any favors by telling them not to sign that deal. you know, they've lost hundreds of thousands of people and maybe it's some strategy to like tire out, you know, Russia or something, but it doesn't seem like Putin's very happy with us. You have Medvidev, you know, former president on Twitter saying, you know, uh uh this is, you know, this is going to get really bad, you know, like really suggestive videos that he's posting and stuff. And so, yeah, it's a weird time. This is a kind of a crazy segue, but you know, Medvidev was interviewed actually and it was on April Fool's Day and an interviewer asked him about um UFOs and thought that you know he would not take it seriously and then he goes, "Oh yeah, no, we have an extensive file about this stuff. President and he talks about a nuclear connection. >> No doubt. >> And it's so fascinating. You're like, and maybe it's plausible deniability for him because it's on April Fools or whatever, but it's it's wild that he's you have this former, you know, Russian president talking about this crazy, >> right? And there have been other Russian officials that come out and say, "Yeah, we we've got people studying the UFO questions." So, um, no doubt that these incidents have happened all over the world. >> All over the world. You have a Yeah. Russian general Vasilei Alexa coming out in a German magazine 2000 saying >> this stuff. And then the one one of my favorite ones is there's um Maronei, you know, this radio engineer, famous radio engineer. So, he is rumored to be part of, you know, this Majestic 12 equivalent, quote unquote, in Italy called the RS33. I actually, I don't know if you remember this, I met you briefly at the San Marino event, um, which is this global UFO conference held there in Italy. And so, you have Roberto Pen and other guys, you know, uh, uh, Paulo Gazardi, you know, who do research on this out there. Um, and Marone's grandson in an interview that's >> vid everybody can see the video of this. He's speaking to Ogo magazine, which is I guess their people magazine equivalent. So, it's sort of a gossip magazine, but he says, "Yeah, my grandfather had a lot to do with the UFO and ET issue. He's a part of this select committee um with uh uh um why am I blanking on the the Mussolini?" >> Yeah, there you go. He was part of a select committee with Luc Mussolini to to to study this stuff. Um and so it's just fascinating. >> This was the magenta crash. Magenta Italy >> in 1933. >> 33. You mentioned Roberto Penotei. He just finished a book about the magenta crash and and shows documentation that yeah really did happen. Maronei uh who invented radio um uh was assigned by Mussolini to head up the group that would investigate this and study the craft etc. And that craft may uh you know it's reasonable to see where that craft was taken [sighs and gasps] to Germany to Nazi Germany where studies were done uh with that craft. In fact, uh, Warner von Brawn, uh, who we know was later taken under, uh, you know, taken back to the US after World War II under Operation Paperclip, right? And he worked on the Apollo program. He knew a lot of the astronauts. Used to have astronauts over to his house on weekends for barbecues. And in fact, um, uh, Gordon, let's see, Gordon Cooper, >> Gordon Cooper wrote a book, and in that book, he talks about, um, van Braun telling him that they actually worked on on UFO craft in Germany, Nazi Germany. >> Wow. uh and actually had a flying model. >> That is fascinating. I didn't know that Gordon Cooper wrote that. That's really amazing. >> Absolutely. And >> wow. I got to check that out. That's wild. >> Yeah. You get a hold of his book. I can I forgot the name of the book, but uh he did write it in there. Uh so chances are Yeah. the back engineering of UFOs goes way back. That is fascinating. Gordon Cooper is no scrub. You know, he spent more time in in orbit than anybody before him as an astronaut as part of the Mercury missions, >> right? >> These were before the Apollo missions. That's amazing. I didn't know that. I had I got to research that's that's fascinating. >> Look into it. >> I will. Yeah, cuz Warner von Braun pops up in these stories. you know, he Edgar Mitchell says that he, you know, comes to him and says, you know, he has knowledge of this stuff and >> apparently he was involved in Edgar Mitchell actually doing these sort of remote viewing parasycchology experiments, you know, in space and stuff. So, there's tangential there, all these anecdotes, but that's maybe the most interesting anecdote of them all that he said he was directly involved in reverse engineering craft, >> right? >> Fascinating. In fact, other of the uh paperclip scientists from Nazi Germany confirmed this >> um again during these weekend meetings with some of the astronauts. >> Well, you know, um Warner von Brown's mentor is a guy named Herman Oberth. And Herman Oberth is on video speculating about UFOs. He says, you know, the the existence of UFOs should make anybody question reality. And then he's he talks about you know um uh time manipulation involved in UFO travel and he was openly very interested in this stuff. So and then he actually as part of paperclipip comes to the US to work as part of convell as well. So >> yeah it's fascinating. >> How do you evaluate because you obviously are very high conviction on your own experience. you have all these you're you're kind of you know brothers in arms with the nuclear experiences where I'm sure you have to slap a pretty high probability on those being real given your own experience. You have a bunch of new whistleblowers now coming out in other context saying they've worked on programs or seen things. How do you evaluate those? Well, like I said, I uh from personal contact with a friend of mine, I I'm convinced that we have back engineered uh recovered craft [sighs and gasps] and um even flown uh some models of that. Uh so I have no doubt about that. um the u uh genetics studies or the uh studies that have been done on tissue of these beings that have been recovered. Uh I think that has been done. That's there's there's been reports of that, good reports and by individuals and so yeah, and all that's being hidden from the public. >> Yeah. Do you think do you have any hope of any of this stuff coming out at any point or do you think it's just so locked down and tightly controlled that we never get to see what a craft looks like? we don't understand its flight principles at most certain things leak in sort of these limited you know managed ways you know what do you think >> well let's just say I'm hopeful I'm hopeful but we still have this committed organization that I call the UFO cabal uh secrecy cabal uh which is determined to maintain the secrecy for a multitude of reasons you know, greed and power and [gasps and sighs] uh you know, these secrets are very valuable. Um, it can be used as, you know, bartering chips. Um, but it's a worldwide organization, well organized, well funded, [sighs and gasps] and uh, it's going to be tough to break through. Do you have any final things to say to the Wall Street Journal, to Joel Sheckchman, to Sean Kirkpatre? I mean, yeah, I'd like to know [sighs and gasps] what evidence Arrow has. Uh, so that they were able to tell Joel Sheckchman that this was some sort of EMP test. And if they have no evidence, in other words, uh that then they're obviously um in intended to discredit me in in some way for whatever reason. And uh it shows the modus operendi of the secrecy cabal and in that they want to discredit witnesses like myself. And by the way, I'm not the only one only witness to these incidents involving UFOs and nuclear weapons. There are many many out there, including Dave Chandel, I mentioned, uh, uh, Walter Feel, uh, etc. I I could name others, but some don't want to be named. >> Yeah. No, I mean, it seems very very common. I was I was diligencing cuz I I invest in companies. That was my day job. I'm sort of not doing that too much anymore. But a month or two ago, I was helping out a friend and he wanted uh help on an investment and it was actually this like uh way to create an artificial ozone layer to, you know, I thought it was a little hairbrained. Honestly, I didn't think it was the best best deal to do, but it was this Israeli entrepreneur and he came from the Israeli nuclear program. And so I was like at the end of you know speaking to him of course about the company I was like look do you think that there's any you know UFO connection when it when it comes to this stuff you know Hashed your you know the head of your space force equivalent has said all these kind of really interesting things about UFOs but also like uh you know this kind of secret space program and um you know this galactic federation or whatever and he got very kind of uncomfortable and he was like we should talk in person or so you know we should we talk, you know, he's like it was just kept deflecting. And I don't know, I think you get a lot of that when it comes to the new the nuclear thing clearly is if you were to pick a starting point for empirical grounded inquiry into all this stuff, there's just so much [ __ ] out there, >> but the nuclear thing seems like this really clear. uh you know after I read the article the uh [sighs] the hit piece disinformation uh I wrote um a rebuttal and it was I listed 14 reasons why uh it couldn't have been EMP testing that shut down my missiles and it was about 1100 or 1200 words I sent that to the Wall Street Journal. They wrote back and said, "We can't accept this because it's too long. We have uh a limit of between 250 and 270 words for any kind of uh op ed or opinion piece or they didn't use the word rebuttal but anyway they rejected it and they said if you can condense it to 270 words uh then uh we'll consider it. >> What is that like a half a page or something? That's not a lot of words. >> That's about a half a page. That's wild. That That doesn't make sense to me. Also, it's like you have this what his thing was like 11 pages or something, the original piece, and then you you're and then you're only allowing, >> you know, um an Air Force veteran. >> You're you're in your 80s now. Is that right? Or >> That's right. >> That's amazing. And and and >> they even mentioned in the article, by the way, that I'm an octogenarian. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but uh >> well, what a what a sucker punch though to somebody who served served their country to say that, you know, there's this [ __ ] cover story about an EMP, not include any of the details around people topside actually seeing UFOs. all of the other cases, the Oscar, you know, the um uh you know, the Echo Flight case eight days before and all the cases since at Malmstrom, just ignore all of that and then allow you to publish something that is literally 5% the length of their original piece. That's absurd. >> I agree. But I made the effort and sent them a 270word rebuttal. Uh, and just yesterday, no, just this morning. Sorry. >> Uh, they said they were going to consider it, but they probably have to edit it. >> It's crazy. >> I I wrote back and said, "Why should you edit my rebuttal on your article, which was full of errors?" >> No, they they clearly have some vested interest in in destroying this topic. I don't know what it is, but I did you hear about I had a story too that last November or something in the fall. I spoke to them about getting an op-ed published between Carl Mel and uh a a cabinet a former cabinet member. So, somebody who's like a presidential cabinet member and not a lowranking cabinet member, like one of the the more important positions in the cabinet. And that guy is saying he's expressing frustration about lack of civilian oversight around UFO programs and lack of his own access to these programs. And uh they they rejected it out of hand with no, you know, reasons as to why why they would reject it. >> And then they go on to write this hit job, you know, discrediting you and stuff, but they didn't mention that a cabinet member had submitted an op-ed to them last fall. It's just I think that's all you need to know to say that they're acting in bad faith. I mean, you could maybe make some argument around bad bureaucracy, the left hand, the op-ed sections not talking to the other. It's just it's it's nuts, though. >> Yeah. But I think this is an opportunity for Congress to get involved because they created Arrow, right? arrows not performing uh because one of their jobs was to investigate reports like like mine and follow through, get some answers. And in my case, I gave them a 2 and 1/2 hour talk. I I gave them documents to support what I was saying. um they complimented me uh in writing and verbally on the job that I did and then at the end of it I asked [sighs] are you going to check with the Air Force and see if I'm you know what I've said is is uh you know they can verify it and they said no. >> Why wouldn't they do that? >> Exactly. I you know No, because he said because we haven't had cooperation from the Air Force on other witnesses. Well, yeah. I mean, look, I think again, all you need to know is, you know, the the crazy story of them not in, you know, not involving the cabinet member submission, but also the fact that Colonel Robert Hiper is saying that this was due to a, you know, an EMP fallout from a nuclear detonation, which is obviously [ __ ] And then then they come up with some new, you know, EMP simulation thing, >> right? >> And but they name an exact model that hadn't been, you know, ready until the early '7s. So, >> right, >> I it's just it's it's even if you're trying to discredit something, it's it's it's a lazy job. It's just not it's not very good, >> right? >> Um so, yeah, I don't know. It feels like to me Kirk Patrick who has always been kind of it feels like a fly trap or something like he's just trying to get the info and then and then squash these stories is spoon feeding this information to Joel Shechman who probably knows nothing about UFOs probably a national security reporter and he's just taking at face value you know you have this this guy who seems like to be you know a normal credentialed physicist telling him that all this stuff is a hoax which if you don't have the data set that that you have or I have around UFOs and nukes, you're just going to believe and then you're just going to publish the thing, not going to fact check. >> Well, again, like I said, at some point, Congress has to do the job of getting to the bottom of this issue, this UAP. What is it? What have we been doing about it? What studies have we done? What have we learned? Um, and they they can start with bringing the Air Force in and asking them questions about incidents like mine and others. >> That would be great. Well, Bob Salis, really appreciate your time. Thank you for having us and uh yeah this is a fantastic discussion and I hope that it it opens people's minds and also uh allows them to look a little deeper when it comes to kind of just uh taking at face value some of these mainstream media headlines and coverage of this very important topic. >> Thank you Jesse. I really appreciate your taking interest in in my case and and uh well the whole subject. >> Absolutely. All right. All right. That's our show. For more information about the ubiquitous link between UFOs and nuclear weapons, please watch my comprehensive documentary with the great journalist Robert Hastings. And if you want to watch my comprehensive takedown of the Wall Street Journal, I will link that video, too. Finally, speaking of hearing out patriotic whistleblowers and veterans, please support my friend and past American Alchemist Randy Anderson, who came on my show earlier this year to expose a possible off-world technology division at Naval Surface Warfare Crane in Indiana. He described seeing a levitating orb and a gauntlet emitting alien looking hieroglyphics. My friend UAP Gerb also did an amazing deep dive on Randy that you can check out on his channel. Randy is setting up a very cool program called Alpha Rising. It's a group specifically for veterans, first responders, and anyone who wants to get their mind right and regain purpose in life. I'm linking his GoFundMe for that project in the description of this video. Until next time, I'm Jesse Michaels and this is American Alchemy.